264. “We’re worth $4M. Why is she so terrified to spend?”

Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You To Be Rich talks to J and Ana, a couple in their early 40s with three children who have built nearly $4 million in net worth through decades of hard work, saving, and real estate investing. On paper, they are in an incredible financial position. They have around $4.8 million in assets, more than $1.2 million invested, $136K in savings, and a net worth just under $4 million. But despite all of that, they still don’t feel free.

J applied because he feels like they’ve had their foot on the gas since they were teenagers and don’t know when they’re allowed to cruise. He wants to relax, travel, and enjoy the life they’ve built. Ana wants that too, but her fear of debt, her desire to protect their kids, and her instinct to keep building make it almost impossible for her to stop. What looks like a conversation about rental properties, credit cards, cars, and spending is really about safety, identity, immigrant family scripts, and learning how to enjoy money after a lifetime of working.

In this episode we uncover:

• Why J and Ana still feel stressed despite having nearly $4 million in net worth • How decades of hard work and real estate investing shaped their money dynamic • Why J feels ready to slow down, but Ana struggles to believe they have enough • Why selling one house feels like both a financial decision and a family decision • How credit card spending, shoes, cars, and hobbies became recurring conflict points • Why J feels like he has to justify his spending • The parent-child dynamic that shows up in their money conversations • Why Ramit challenges them on changing the CSP numbers • How immigrant family history shaped Ana’s relationship with work, money, and worry • The question of whether multiple properties are still part of their Rich Life • How becoming more decisive may be the real work ahead

Chapters:

(00:01:44) Meet J and Ana (00:03:34) “Our foot is stuck on the gas” (00:04:28) Ana doesn’t know when it’s time to sell (00:05:21) Why they are never on the same page about money (00:07:11) The credit card statement fights (00:08:44) Ana’s dream: take away the card and pay off properties (00:10:14) Shoes, cars, and spending guilt (00:13:04) The parent-child dynamic in their money conversations (00:14:47) Looking at the Conscious Spending Plan together (00:18:08) Income, rental properties, and CSP confusion (00:30:32) The family house they can’t agree on selling (00:34:12) Why making more money hasn’t made them feel better (01:38:30) Ana’s challenge: learning to spend on herself (01:42:53) Ramit’s final warning: they need to become decisive together

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Transcript:

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:05:08

Ana

I wish I could just go out and just enjoy the menu with my kids. It’s just hard.

00:00:05:10 – 00:00:11:26

I feel like she doesn’t trust me. I feel like she doesn’t believe that I’m capable of keeping our family’s finances in the green.

00:00:11:27 – 00:00:17:03

Ana

He thinks we’re good. There’s still a lot of things we could be doing better.

00:00:17:04 – 00:00:21:01

Ramit

Right now, you have, like, $4 million in net worth. So what’s the problem?

00:00:21:03 – 00:00:25:10

Ana

I think I’m a worrier. I do worry a lot. Yeah. What if. What if this happens? But if this happens.

00:00:25:10 – 00:00:28:09

We never have a true moment to just relax.

00:00:28:11 – 00:00:34:29

Ramit

It’s kind of ironic that making all this money has not made you both feel better about it.

00:00:35:04 – 00:00:38:00

Ana

I think I’m just afraid of messing up.

00:00:38:00 – 00:00:59:04

Ramit

This is a skill that I think in a you have to build the ability to actually unlock parts of you that allow you to feel more joy, actually want you do for your kids to. This is the beginning of changing your relationship with money. Some people watching like I never saw somebody struggle so much to go to a spa day.

00:00:59:06 – 00:01:21:26

Ramit

How much is enough? This is a question I ask my guests a lot, and I am shocked at how few people have actually thought it through. In my experience. Less than 1% of people actually know what enough means. In my own personal life, I probably know definitely less than ten people who know exactly what enough is. I think that’s a tragedy.

00:01:21:29 – 00:01:43:28

Ramit

I actually think it’s just kind of lame to spend your entire life working and agonizing and worrying about money, and you never even went. The next logical step to say, how much is enough? In a way, it’s such a pointless existence to just accumulate more and more blindly without actually thinking about the natural end point, which many of us actually get the gift of choosing.

00:01:44:02 – 00:02:05:01

Ramit

Today I’m speaking to Jay and Anna. They are both 41 years old. Now let’s take a look at their conscious spending plan. If you want my help to build your own conscious spending plan and to take control of your money, you can join my money coaching program at E-commerce Money Coaching. You will be shocked how far you get in 48 hours.

00:02:05:03 – 00:02:37:25

Ramit

Assets $4.8 million. They’re 41 years old. Investments 1.25 million. Okay, they probably own real estate. Savings $136,000. Debt 2.28 million. So a total net worth of about $3.9 million. Okay, that’s very, very impressive. Fixed cost 66%. That’s kind of high for having that high of income. Investments at 3%, savings at 7%, and guilt free spending at 24%. So they like to spend money.

00:02:37:25 – 00:02:54:21

Ramit

Okay, this is an interesting one. I’m looking forward to speaking to Jay and Hannah now. Something rare happened. You applied to speak to me? Yes. It’s almost always the woman in a heterosexual relationship that applies. So I’m really curious what made you apply to speak to me today?

00:02:54:22 – 00:03:05:28

A lot of the stuff that I do is the quote unquote woman role, right? Like the finances and and the outspokenness and stuff like that. The communication right up. I’ve always had a strong communication.

00:03:05:29 – 00:03:07:02

Ana

Wedding planning.

00:03:07:04 – 00:03:08:01

Ramit

You were the wedding planner.

00:03:08:04 – 00:03:10:01

No, it was not. I don’t know about that one.

00:03:10:06 – 00:03:12:08

Ana

Wait, I was also no.

00:03:12:10 – 00:03:33:16

Ramit

I was like, have you ever heard of a groom? Zilla? Okay. All right. Okay. Well, let’s take a look at the application, because you said something that I wanted to ask you about. Jay, you wrote we’ve worked and saved like crazy since we were 16, but it still feels like our foot is stuck on the gas and we don’t know when we can cruise.

00:03:33:16 – 00:03:34:16

Ramit

What do you mean by that?

00:03:34:18 – 00:03:56:17

We’ve literally been nonstop. I mean, I started working when I was 13 years old and, she started working around 16 as well. And it’s always just felt like I’ve literally never not had a job since I was of legal age. So when we got enough money, we started investing in real estate. And then not only did I have my quote unquote 9 to 5, but then I was also landlord or fixing homes up and stuff like that.

00:03:56:17 – 00:04:00:19

So we never have a true moment to just relax.

00:04:00:21 – 00:04:01:20

Ramit

And do you want that?

00:04:01:23 – 00:04:03:21

I do, okay. That’s my rich life.

00:04:03:21 – 00:04:08:01

Ramit

Okay. Got it, got it. Anna, what is your reaction hearing this?

00:04:08:03 – 00:04:23:08

Ana

Yeah. I mean, same thing because like I says, we don’t stop. So I want to get to a point where it makes sense for us to just, you know what? We’re good. Our finances are good, our kids are taken care of. Let’s just sit on a couch and watch a movie.

00:04:23:09 – 00:04:23:27

Ramit

You want to do that?

00:04:23:28 – 00:04:24:13

Ana

Yeah.

00:04:24:16 – 00:04:28:04

Ramit

So you both want to do that. So what’s the problem?

00:04:28:06 – 00:04:54:03

Ana

I don’t know when is when to sell. He thinks we’re kind of good, but at the same time, there’s still a lot of things we could be doing better. And we have different mindsets, I guess on some of the rental properties we have, he thinks if we sell them, we could be done and I want to be able to continue doing what we’re doing.

00:04:54:03 – 00:05:01:06

Ana

Work hard now. That way my kids can have what we didn’t have growing up.

00:05:01:08 – 00:05:04:11

Ramit

How have you tried to resolve it?

00:05:04:13 – 00:05:16:22

I know we’ve tried talking, but it just feels like it never gets anywhere right. I’m kind of setting what I think is right and she’s setting what she thinks is right, and feels like we just talk. And talking just doesn’t really get us anywhere.

00:05:16:27 – 00:05:21:13

Ramit

Can you think of a time where the two of you were not on the same page about money?

00:05:21:15 – 00:05:41:22

Every time I think I think that’s, that’s something we’re never on the same page about. Right? She’s, she’s definitely the saver. And the putting things away. And I’m very much the spender, but I think I do it intelligently. It just seems like every extra penny that we have, she wants it to go to savings, and we’ve got more than enough and savings.

00:05:41:25 – 00:05:43:21

Ramit

What do you think?

00:05:43:23 – 00:06:05:16

Ana

I don’t agree, because we have a lot of properties that kind of all have mortgages. So to me, I’d rather put, you know, that extra money towards the properties and not have to kind of stress about money and being able to, pay things off and not lose them.

00:06:05:19 – 00:06:06:27

Ramit

Are you stressed right now about money?

00:06:07:00 – 00:06:22:03

Ana

Yes. Because we hit, like I said, we have property that I would like to be paid off, that when my kids take over, they don’t have to worry about, you know, not being able to afford a house or the struggle we had coming up and, and making money.

00:06:22:06 – 00:06:24:26

Ramit

How many kids? Three. And how old?

00:06:24:28 – 00:06:28:08

We’ve got a 16 year old girl, a 14 year old girl and, 11 year old boy.

00:06:28:11 – 00:06:31:08

Ramit

Okay, great. Do you talk to them about money.

00:06:31:11 – 00:06:31:25

Ana

All the time?

00:06:32:02 – 00:06:35:04

Ramit

You do? Wow. What do you say? That was quite a reaction.

00:06:35:08 – 00:06:50:03

Ana

I don’t know, like how to do your day to day without having to live paycheck to paycheck. You know, don’t live off, credit cards, just teaching them the value of money because we both didn’t have that. So, okay.

00:06:50:05 – 00:06:57:19

Ramit

And what part of the country, generally speaking, do you live in Nevada? Okay. Yeah. Got it. Okay. And what do you do for a living?

00:06:57:21 – 00:06:58:13

Ana

I do retail.

00:06:58:13 – 00:07:01:08

And I’m a, national account manager for a rental equipment company.

00:07:01:08 – 00:07:11:01

Ramit

Got it. Okay, let’s go back to the, time anytime recently where you were not on the same page with money. Think of a specific example.

00:07:11:03 – 00:07:26:18

Well, it seems like it happens every time. Around the same time of the month is when my credit card goes in, right? Whenever she sees the large payment go in, like, I can’t believe you spent this much this month. But then I’ve got a reminder that I use that credit card not just for personal stuff. I pay a lot of bills from that credit card.

00:07:26:18 – 00:07:40:14

We’ve got a lot of, medical stuff going in there, whether it be dentists or whatever the case may be. But that’s always kind of, a time where she pulls me aside is like, hey, how did you manage to spend, you know, $6,000 this month or whatever the number is? And.

00:07:40:15 – 00:07:45:16

Ramit

What’s the number that when you saw it, you said, oh, my God, 10,000. 10,000?

00:07:45:16 – 00:07:59:22

Ana

Yes. When I saw her making a credit card payment for $10,000. Well, what was on that? Well, you know, all the little stuff just adds up. So. So, yeah, every time the bank statement comes in, I’m like, let’s see what you have.

00:07:59:25 – 00:08:01:29

Ramit

And then what happens?

00:08:02:02 – 00:08:02:20

Ana

Happens again.

00:08:02:27 – 00:08:22:21

She pushes buttons until I kind of I feel silly having to explain myself that I spent 20 bucks here or 30 bucks there. I mean, I get it, it adds up. But, I feel like she doesn’t trust me. I feel like she doesn’t, believe that I’m capable of keeping our family’s finances in the in the green.

00:08:22:24 – 00:08:28:26

And I’ve been doing it since we first moved in. Well, I don’t know, 18 years ago, before we had kids.

00:08:28:26 – 00:08:30:05

Ramit

Are your finances in the green?

00:08:30:11 – 00:08:37:10

For the most part, yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, do I spend more some. Some months. Yes. But for if you look at year over year. Yeah, we’re definitely in the green.

00:08:37:12 – 00:08:44:25

Ramit

Okay. And if you could wave a magic wand and you were totally in charge of the money, what would you do differently?

00:08:44:27 – 00:08:58:12

Ana

Maybe take away his credit card and some apps on his phone so that one that he can spend and then use that money to pay off our rental properties and then try to relax and not have to worry so much about the mortgage payment every month for all the properties.

00:08:58:12 – 00:09:01:07

Ramit

That’s it. So you want to pay the mortgages off faster, correct?

00:09:01:14 – 00:09:18:27

I call based on that because it’s not even two weeks ago. She’s like, oh, if if we do sell one of these properties that we have in California, we should look at buying an apex here in Nevada. So I know that when something is paid off, she’s just going to say, hey, let’s go buy something else. So I’m always going to have mortgages as well.

00:09:18:27 – 00:09:21:00

I’ve come to the realization.

00:09:21:02 – 00:09:23:25

Ramit

The smile tells me, you kind of agree.

00:09:23:28 – 00:09:43:20

Ana

Yeah, I’m working on that. I’m definitely working on. Hopefully after you look at all our stuff, we can kind of come to an agreement of being able to not get any more properties and be content, be content and just, like our work life because he loves to travel.

00:09:43:20 – 00:09:46:11

Ramit

So you need my permission to live your rich life.

00:09:46:14 – 00:09:49:21

Yes. Please give it to him.

00:09:49:23 – 00:10:13:29

Ana

No, I just click the not knowing of, make sure where our finances are in order. And his spending and and the spending. Right. We need to be able to control the spending to where if we don’t have the rental properties, we can live off our W-2 income. Okay. We do compensate a lot for that too.

00:10:14:03 – 00:10:18:03

Ramit

What’s the thing about the shoes is there’s something about you buying shoes.

00:10:18:05 – 00:10:33:18

No. It’s me. My shoes. It’s, I don’t know, seven months ago, there was a sale at Nike, and, I think I bought, like, ten pairs, but I was, like, $300 for all ten pairs, so it’s like, okay, yes, I have a lot of shoes, but it’s like I’m dropping thousands of dollars and those shoes will last me maybe the next 2 or 3 years.

00:10:33:21 – 00:10:36:00

Ramit

Okay, so what’s the disagreement there?

00:10:36:00 – 00:10:39:29

But I guess she just like throwing me a it’s her calling me out when I, when I spend money.

00:10:39:29 – 00:10:42:27

Ramit

Oh I see okay. Yeah. And what about cars.

00:10:43:00 – 00:10:54:01

That’s that’s my that’s my advice. I’ll be the first to admit that. Right. I spent a lot of money, in my life. And again, we’ve been together a long time. So she’s seen all the money.

00:10:54:05 – 00:10:55:09

Ramit

How many cars? Yeah.

00:10:55:11 – 00:11:12:19

I only have one. That’s mine. I’ve got, a truck that’s provided to me by my company. But I’ve spent in the past, right. A a previous job, I bought a 100,000 plus thousand dollars truck. And then before that, a sports car. And, I’ve been lucky enough to sell them for relatively what I purchased them for.

00:11:12:19 – 00:11:16:17

But I’ve lost some money because I do things to them. And, you know.

00:11:16:19 – 00:11:18:07

Ramit

What’s your take on the cars?

00:11:18:10 – 00:11:31:07

Ana

We end up wasting a lot of money on things that we don’t need to like all the modifications and stuff like then that he ends up selling it. So the current car that he has right now, I said there’s you’re not going to sell that, right, no matter what.

00:11:31:07 – 00:11:35:23

Ramit

You told him that. Yeah. Like what do you put into a car, by the way? This is so hilarious to me because, like.

00:11:35:23 – 00:11:36:08

I know you’re not.

00:11:36:08 – 00:11:56:21

Ramit

A panda. Yeah. No, I’m not a car or like, when I bought, you know, like when my family bought a house when we were growing up, like, you buy the house and that’s the house. Like there is no renovation. What’s to buy a car? That’s it. And then I find out people do modifications, they take it in. They get this after dealer after fact, whatever it’s called.

00:11:56:23 – 00:12:00:19

Ramit

And I’m like, what you literally this car isn’t even the same vehicle anymore.

00:12:00:19 – 00:12:01:08

No it’s not.

00:12:01:08 – 00:12:02:16

Ramit

What did you do to your truck?

00:12:02:16 – 00:12:13:07

Like I did a paint protection film. Okay, like a wrap on it. I guess you can call it. That was like $8,000. And then I did, it was a wrap there, so I did some more suspension stuff to it.

00:12:13:08 – 00:12:15:23

Ramit

Like what? Like made it higher.

00:12:15:23 – 00:12:34:03

No, sorry. Hi. Just tweak. Some of it already comes factory with with, like, off road. Like the ones that are for like, Baja $5 500 and stuff like that. But my current car is, Toyota Supra and, and, I’ve kind of afraid to say how much money I spend into it and say I can. I could have bought a second one.

00:12:34:05 – 00:12:34:24

But. Yeah.

00:12:34:26 – 00:12:37:24

Ramit

How much did it cost? All the all the modifications?

00:12:37:26 – 00:12:40:02

Probably about 50, 55,000.

00:12:40:09 – 00:12:43:00

Ramit

55,000 for modify. How much does a car cost?

00:12:43:02 – 00:12:45:12

I got to pay 55,000 for. Wow.

00:12:45:14 – 00:12:48:26

Ramit

All right. So I’m just trying to.

00:12:48:29 – 00:12:55:11

We can’t all drive a Honda Accord. No. 20 years. I wish I could.

00:12:55:14 – 00:13:04:07

Ramit

So when you have these conversations about money, about credit cards, about cars, what role does each of you play in that conversation?

00:13:04:09 – 00:13:13:24

She’s very much the the I don’t know what the correct word for it, but the authority of like or the mom. Right. Why did you do this and why did you spend this there?

00:13:13:24 – 00:13:14:29

Ramit

And what’s your role?

00:13:15:02 – 00:13:20:15

I’ve got to explain myself and say, okay, I justify my purchases and why I did what I did.

00:13:20:15 – 00:13:21:23

Ramit

And what do you think?

00:13:21:26 – 00:13:43:11

Ana

I mean, he he nailed it comes down to them. But then again, it’s just like how surprised you are, right? It’s like, do you really need to do all that on an early nice car. Yeah. So me trying to understand his I guess love for his hobbies is probably another reason because like that money should not be spent.

00:13:43:13 – 00:14:14:12

Ramit

We have some parent child dynamic here, which is. Why did you do that? Did you need that? Are you sure? And then. But mommy, I like to spend money on candy. I think that it’s a little more nuanced than that. Because when I ask her, do you like doing this? She says, no. When I think about what he is spending his money on, for the most part, although some of it is a bit extravagant, they can almost certainly easily afford it.

00:14:14:15 – 00:14:29:09

Ramit

So there’s something deeper going on here, and I want to find out what it is. Now. I don’t know if he should or should not, I don’t know, I have to take a look at the numbers, because people spend their money in a lot of ways that I don’t understand. But how do I know if they should or should not?

00:14:29:11 – 00:14:38:04

Ramit

Do they have enough? Maybe they’re going into debt. That to me is tells me more than just I don’t agree with it. How does that strike you?

00:14:38:04 – 00:14:40:17

Ana

Yeah, I get it. Okay. I understand. Okay.

00:14:40:19 – 00:14:47:22

Ramit

Well, we’ll take a look at the numbers. Two actually. Should we look at them now? Yeah. Let’s go. What was it like to do the conscious spending plan together?

00:14:47:24 – 00:14:52:28

Eye opening and a little confusing. Just because we had numbers that we didn’t know which bucket they should fall into.

00:14:53:02 – 00:14:56:08

Ramit

Yep. Sorry. Anna. What was it like for you to do the KSP?

00:14:56:11 – 00:15:10:02

Ana

This little confused. How everything adds up so fast. So, and then some of this stuff comes out of my paychecks. I just wasn’t sure on where to put it, so. Okay, you check it out. All right.

00:15:10:04 – 00:15:19:15

Ramit

Let’s take a look here. Anna, can you read off the word in bold and the number next to it in full for this entire box, please?

00:15:19:15 – 00:15:40:11

Ana

Assets? 4,876,000. Investments is $1,255,907. Savings is 136,978. Debt is $2,283,527.

00:15:40:12 – 00:15:42:05

Ramit

Great. What’s the total net worth?

00:15:42:07 – 00:15:46:25

Ana

$3,985,358.

00:15:47:00 – 00:15:50:08

Ramit

All right. What do you think about those numbers?

00:15:50:10 – 00:15:52:23

Ana

I like all of them except the debt.

00:15:52:26 – 00:15:57:12

Ramit

All right. What do you feel when you see those numbers?

00:15:57:15 – 00:16:04:07

Ana

A little anxious. But overall content.

00:16:04:10 – 00:16:07:02

Ramit

Okay. Cool. J what about you.

00:16:07:04 – 00:16:28:05

I feel proud, I mean this is, and as in my hard work the past, you know, 30 years, it’s a lot of hard work. I see the, you know, 18 hour days. Staying up till 3:00 in the morning renovating a property. I see a lot of that. And, yeah, the debt is is overwhelming, but it’s all real estate debt.

00:16:28:05 – 00:16:35:14

So, I know that we’re positive on all the properties we own, so if we had to tomorrow, sell it on, we couldn’t be out of that debt.

00:16:35:17 – 00:16:45:15

Ramit

Well, pretty pretty impressive. Let’s not forget you’re both 41 years old. That’s incredibly impressive, considering. I mean, it would be impressive at 70.

00:16:45:19 – 00:16:47:00

Thank you, thank you.

00:16:47:02 – 00:16:49:00

Ramit

Do you ever celebrate these numbers?

00:16:49:02 – 00:17:04:24

I don’t know if we celebrate the numbers, but we do. You know, we’ll take a vacation a year. I mean, we skipped the last year, but we’ll try to take a nice vacation, right? We used to alternate with the kids when they were younger, and they still wanted to hang out with us and then do a couple vacation, and that was kind of how I celebrated, right?

00:17:04:24 – 00:17:18:05

We got to relax for a week. I didn’t ask for my work phone. We weren’t doing anything real estate related. But no, I don’t think we’ve ever answered your question. Sorry, I don’t think we’ve ever said, hey, good job. Like, look, look, we’re we’re, And that was kind of what was cool about doing the CSP together.

00:17:18:05 – 00:17:20:07

I was like, wow, look, look what we’ve come.

00:17:20:07 – 00:17:23:14

Ana

We’ve never actually put, our numbers on paper.

00:17:23:21 – 00:17:36:07

Ramit

Really? Yeah. Just worked and worked. Well, I think it’s good thing that you did, because those numbers are big. I mean, by the end of today’s conversation, it’s very likely to be $4 million.

00:17:36:12 – 00:17:38:10

Yeah, that’s pretty incredible.

00:17:38:12 – 00:17:52:13

Ramit

And it actually allows you to really think about your life in a different way. But it’s so common that most of us are just day to day. We got to do this. You got to pay us bill. We got to fix this thing. This dishwasher’s broken, but you don’t stop to look at what does it all add up to?

00:17:52:13 – 00:18:08:12

Ramit

And and more importantly, what does it mean for million dollars at this age? What do we get? We’ve done all this work. What do we get from it? Let’s keep going on the numbers though. Income. Jake, can you read me off your combined gross monthly income, please?

00:18:08:15 – 00:18:10:17

21,279.

00:18:10:17 – 00:18:17:01

Ramit

That’s per month. So per year, $255,000 a year. Did you both know that number?

00:18:17:04 – 00:18:18:04

Ana

Yes.

00:18:18:06 – 00:18:27:14

Ramit

Good. Great. And then the net is $367,000 net. How can the net be higher than the gross.

00:18:27:17 – 00:18:29:24

Ana

Or rental properties income.

00:18:29:27 – 00:18:34:13

Ramit

So you okay. So you put that income straight into your net.

00:18:34:13 – 00:18:40:10

She added that because we were asked to put the rental properties because we didn’t know where to put them. Yeah. So I’m not sure.

00:18:40:12 – 00:19:02:26

Ramit

Let me jump in quickly and save you a bunch of back and forth about Anna’s gross income and mortgage payments on multiple properties. The CSP is designed to be very simple, so when people have multiple streams of income at different tax rates, it can be challenging to categorize them here. But we know that it’s impossible to have a gross income that is lower than in net income.

00:19:02:29 – 00:19:28:05

Ramit

So we’re going to ballpark it. Anna had originally calculated her gross income as $4,518, and her net income as $18,375. We just know intuitively that that cannot be right. Doing some quick math around there. Mortgage payments lead us to adjust her gross income to $10,500 and her net at approximately 8000. She also double counted their mortgage under fixed cost.

00:19:28:05 – 00:19:51:17

Ramit

So we brought that down, which lowered their fixed costs dramatically. And that makes sense. They are a high income couple. So their original number of 66% fixed costs did not sit right with me. Now we know that it was a math error. I see a lot of comments from people wishing that we adjusted the CSP to include this and to include that, and I actually think a lot of those comments are pretty fair comments.

00:19:51:20 – 00:20:15:27

Ramit

If you decide that you want to tweak the conscious spending plan for your own needs, be my guest. However, I want to emphasize something. I designed the CSP to be simple, and I find that human nature, especially from weird freak optimizers, leads you to add in this line and that line and that line, and suddenly you have a super complicated spreadsheet that nobody actually understands.

00:20:16:02 – 00:20:43:07

Ramit

So I would rather take simplicity over complexity and even comprehensiveness any day of the week when it comes to something like the CSP. All right, let’s get back into it. All right. Let’s take a look at your fixed costs. Fixed costs now with some adjustments are 49%, which is lower than I typically recommend, 50 to 60%. But it actually makes sense because you all have a very high income.

00:20:43:10 – 00:20:58:10

Ramit

So of course your numbers should be lower than average. Most people do not make $243,000 net per year. So good. Let’s keep looking. Your investments are at 5%.

00:20:58:13 – 00:21:12:09

I don’t agree with that. So I’ve got, 7% for my for one kids going into that. I also contribute $1,000 a month into Robinhood. And then I also contribute the 75, 100 a year for the Roth IRA.

00:21:12:15 – 00:21:30:26

Ramit

That should be here. So let’s call it 585 a month ballpark. So your number is now 8%, but it’s actually higher than that because you have your 400 and K correct. Cool. All right then savings at 10% or $2,100 a month. Agree.

00:21:31:02 – 00:21:32:23

Well yeah I think that’s safe to say.

00:21:32:28 – 00:21:39:18

Ramit

All right. Which leaves you with $6,000 per month. What do you think about that?

00:21:39:21 – 00:21:53:20

That’s a big number. I’m not going to lie. Again, what’s tough for me to see is to see how much of that my credit cards every month is actual spending that I’m doing. That’s for me, right? Non-family related or non real estate related.

00:21:53:20 – 00:21:58:22

Ramit

Do you track it? I do you check it on your credit card. Do you like look at it and analyze it.

00:21:58:22 – 00:22:01:24

So yeah I’ll look on my credit card every day to see what what expenses are going in.

00:22:01:24 – 00:22:03:01

Ramit

And do you do the same.

00:22:03:03 – 00:22:04:03

Ana

Yeah.

00:22:04:05 – 00:22:06:09

Ramit

What do you think about him looking at this stuff every day.

00:22:06:11 – 00:22:15:15

Ana

Yeah I mean I guess it’s good that way he can keep track of anything, looks strange or something comes out.

00:22:15:15 – 00:22:19:14

Ramit

So if that’s the case, then do you trust his ability to spend correctly?

00:22:19:20 – 00:22:40:01

Ana

I trust his ability to know our finances, but at the end of the month, we don’t really know how much we’re bringing in or how much we’re spending. Exactly. Because, of everything that we’re making. So if Jay can kind of see, like, hey, this month I’ve spent way more than I should. And this.

00:22:40:03 – 00:22:40:20

Ramit

How much should he.

00:22:40:20 – 00:22:42:25

Ana

Spent? I don’t know all the part I don’t know.

00:22:42:26 – 00:22:44:07

Ramit

You get to make the allowance. What is it?

00:22:44:14 – 00:22:46:29

Please, mommy.

00:22:47:01 – 00:22:55:11

Ana

I don’t know. I don’t know if there’s a certain amount. I just, looking at our numbers. That does seem like a crazy amount of money, but it’s like.

00:22:55:14 – 00:22:56:06

Ramit

Do you ever say no?

00:22:56:13 – 00:22:57:22

Ana

No to spending?

00:22:57:29 – 00:22:59:00

Ramit

Okay. Besides that.

00:22:59:03 – 00:23:04:15

Ana

Yeah. I mean, I have kiddos, so it was asking for stuff, like, now.

00:23:04:20 – 00:23:05:12

Ramit

You say no.

00:23:05:14 – 00:23:15:22

Ana

Yeah, certain things, like a bag of Takis or something like that. I say, no, we can’t eat that. So, yeah, I mean, the word no is in my vocabulary, okay.

00:23:15:22 – 00:23:26:25

Ramit

And you use it. Yeah. And when you say you say no to spending. I didn’t catch you saying no. I caught you saying, should you spend that much? You shouldn’t spend that much. But I didn’t catch you saying no.

00:23:26:28 – 00:23:29:18

Ana

Oh, I guess you’re right.

00:23:29:21 – 00:23:31:16

Ramit

So I’ll ask again. Do you say no?

00:23:31:18 – 00:23:58:28

Ana

No, I don’t say no. I guess not today. Because, like you said, I trust him. I know he’s he’s worked really hard. With the life we’ve put together. Yeah. So I’m not, like, don’t spend the money or don’t buy the car part or don’t get into this hobby, but when the credit card statement comes in, I see that huge amount, like, right now we’re seeing with, our numbers.

00:23:58:28 – 00:24:17:22

Ana

That’s for numbers. Like, why why are we doing this every month when it comes to all the spending, you know, let’s kind of get a better control of our spending because it’s true. It’s a plastic. You’re swiping it, swiping it. You’re not really paying attention to the amount of money you’re putting on that credit card.

00:24:17:22 – 00:24:22:15

Ramit

Can you imagine a world where you do not have to track everything you spend?

00:24:22:17 – 00:24:23:25

Ana

Yeah.

00:24:23:28 – 00:24:25:21

Ramit

Because that would mean what?

00:24:25:24 – 00:24:28:18

Ana

Relax. Be at peace with what we’ve done.

00:24:28:18 – 00:24:38:09

Ramit

No. But you told me that’s what you want. So clearly there’s something else going on because you told me you want to relax. In fact look at now when you said relax you kind of sit back.

00:24:38:14 – 00:24:39:28

Ana

It’s trying to relax.

00:24:40:01 – 00:24:45:12

Ramit

It’s like, this is this is your relaxing. Let me show you. Hey, everybody.

00:24:45:14 – 00:24:47:17

Ana

I’m relaxed.

00:24:47:19 – 00:24:49:13

Ramit

Okay?

00:24:49:16 – 00:24:50:04

Right in front of me.

00:24:50:11 – 00:24:51:04

Ramit

And you.

00:24:51:06 – 00:24:51:29

Know, sir.

00:24:52:01 – 00:24:56:16

Ramit

I noticed that you zeroed out my miscellaneous category in the spending.

00:24:56:18 – 00:25:14:23

That was me. Because I feel like I’m pretty confident in the stuff that we put in there. As far, the only thing that was, I didn’t have a bucket, I guess is a credit card that I said, we spend and pay every month. I mean, we don’t really have any subscriptions. Besides, Apple, we have the extra storage.

00:25:14:25 – 00:25:18:23

Other than that, Netflix and stuff comes out of my phone bill.

00:25:18:25 – 00:25:21:13

Ramit

But like you spent $6,000 a month on your credit card.

00:25:21:20 – 00:25:29:07

Yes. Every month it seems like there’s something. Last month, I had a, a tooth for how to get replace, so I was, like, $2,000. Right.

00:25:29:08 – 00:25:32:05

Ramit

Where’s that planned for in the KSP?

00:25:32:08 – 00:25:32:29

Ana

It’s not. It’s not.

00:25:32:29 – 00:25:38:29

Ramit

That’s what miscellaneous is for. Why do you mess with my numbers when they’re designed for you.

00:25:39:01 – 00:25:42:27

To get around out of you? I guess I don’t know what the hell.

00:25:43:00 – 00:25:46:07

Ana

I know, I told them, I said I don’t think women was going to be happy with that.

00:25:46:10 – 00:26:02:11

Ramit

Once in a while, when someone changes something, I’ll ask them why. And they have a very good reason. This happens like 3% of the time. And I’m like, I respect that you deviated from my system, you adapted it, but you had a very, very good reason.

00:26:02:13 – 00:26:02:26

Ana

Yeah.

00:26:02:26 – 00:26:07:26

Ramit

What I do mind is, hey, I think this number is Big Zero.

00:26:07:29 – 00:26:08:19

Ana

Thank you.

00:26:08:19 – 00:26:16:05

Ramit

And you actually need it for things like all the things that come up when you have a family and you have kids. Yes. And properties.

00:26:16:11 – 00:26:20:22

I don’t know why I thought it was subscriptions. I now that I’m reading it here, it obviously is not.

00:26:20:28 – 00:26:42:21

Ramit

I’m going to fix your miscellaneous. Okay. Let’s just do it. Well we have 57% fixed costs. We worse than it was before but before was artificially low. So 57% is still within the 50 to 60% range. You all make so much money that I really think this number should be a little bit lower, but still, it’s fine. I’m not sitting here.

00:26:42:21 – 00:26:59:05

Ramit

I don’t lecture anybody who has less than 60% fixed cost and also has millions of dollars in their 40s. Okay. Any questions so far? No. All right. By the way, your savings are 11 months of fixed costs. Did you know that?

00:26:59:07 – 00:26:59:22

Yes.

00:26:59:22 – 00:27:01:01

Ramit

Cool. What do you think of that?

00:27:01:04 – 00:27:11:14

I feel comfortable with that. Right. Her biggest fear is what if you lose your job or we lose you, right? Yeah. That makes me feel at ease that if something did happen to me, my family wouldn’t be scrambling.

00:27:11:14 – 00:27:22:13

Ramit

Yeah, 11 months is really good. I’ve been telling people 12 months is good, especially in a turmoil. Economic times. I think it’s great your savings are solid. Good work.

00:27:22:16 – 00:27:23:06

Thank you.

00:27:23:08 – 00:27:24:07

Ana

Thank you.

00:27:24:10 – 00:27:43:00

Ramit

I think we need to admit that the CSP is a little chaotic, and I’m not sure. I did a great job of clarifying everything on the sheet. I think it’s probably mostly accurate, but what I think is really important here is what it suggests about their finances. I think there’s probably a lot of chaos. I think there’s money here and there.

00:27:43:02 – 00:28:05:03

Ramit

I think the fact that they are not surprised that the money in their fixed costs dropped to like 50% is kind of indicative. They don’t really know their numbers carefully. That tells me they’re not really connected to it. How can you feel good about money if you’re not connected to it? I wonder if they like chaos. I wonder what other parts of their life reflect it.

00:28:05:03 – 00:28:24:29

Ramit

Like constantly working but not being able to relax, even for an afternoon. That kind of worldview shows up in a conscious spending plan, and it shows up in other parts of their money, and I want to dig into it more. I want to find out what’s really going on here.

00:28:25:01 – 00:28:32:07

Ramit

Down to guilt free spending. Yeah, I’ll have about 5000 bucks a month extra to spend every month. What do you think about that?

00:28:32:10 – 00:28:41:06

I like it, I guess it’s just getting Aneta to buy in on that, right? Because she feels that we need to throw that extra $5,000 back in the savings.

00:28:41:13 – 00:28:45:00

Ramit

You mean back to the mortgages, right? What what what are the mortgage rates that.

00:28:45:07 – 00:28:47:27

Are primaries at, five.

00:28:47:28 – 00:28:48:17

Ana

Six and a.

00:28:48:17 – 00:29:03:03

Half? Six and a half? Yeah. The other ones are 2.75, 3.25. And we’re trying to sell one right now that we did in a partnership. Me and one of my good friends did, and Big Bear has an Airbnb in that one I believe is at 7.257.25.

00:29:03:03 – 00:29:07:24

Ramit

Again, if you had the money, would you pay the 2.75% fast?

00:29:07:27 – 00:29:12:03

Ana

No, I paint output. I focus it on a primary.

00:29:12:04 – 00:29:17:18

Ramit

Well, let’s say you paid that off. Would you then take the money and pay off the next one? No. Oh.

00:29:17:21 – 00:29:19:11

Ana

I don’t know.

00:29:19:13 – 00:29:26:11

Ramit

So you pay off the primary and the 7% one is gone. So you have these low interest one. Would you pay them off early?

00:29:26:13 – 00:29:32:23

Ana

I don’t think I’d pay that the 2.75 just because it’s too low. Right, for me to put money towards that.

00:29:32:28 – 00:29:39:26

Ramit

That’s pretty helpful. It tells me how you treat debt is some people they just hate debt.

00:29:40:01 – 00:29:41:10

Ana

And I do hate that. But it’s just.

00:29:41:17 – 00:29:42:08

Ramit

You hate it, but not.

00:29:42:09 – 00:29:44:18

Ana

Enough. It doesn’t make sense to put that money towards that.

00:29:44:19 – 00:30:05:05

Ramit

You have to understand most people do not get to the mathematical point. Literally. Debt is just bad. It’s like me having like roaches on me. Okay, it doesn’t matter. Oh, they’re actually not going to harm me. It’s like they’re bad. Get it off. I’ll put all my money and I go, that debt paying it off really is going to cost you, like, $385,000 in opportunity cost.

00:30:05:05 – 00:30:26:14

Ramit

You got to get rid of it. Okay? It’s up to you. But you’re telling me no. Which tells me, you understand debt. Everybody has feelings about money, but you also are looking at the math side of it, too. Okay, that’s quite interesting. So because you understand debt and interest rates, what do you want to do with the money?

00:30:26:16 – 00:30:32:20

Ramit

I mean, we’re looking at like a $5,000 a month in guilt free spending. So you can allocate it however you want. What do you want to do?

00:30:32:22 – 00:30:54:23

Ana

I probably put in a separate savings account for the rental properties in case anything happens to Jay or I lose tenants, I’d want to be able to hold the properties because one of the properties that we have, the kids actually want to keep with the families because they kind of grew up in it. So I would like to keep that property with the family.

00:30:54:23 – 00:31:00:24

Ana

And then when they’re older, if they want to move back to California, they’ll have a home that they can raise their kids in.

00:31:00:26 – 00:31:04:29

Ramit

Do you all think that you have enough money to do what you want to do on paper?

00:31:04:29 – 00:31:24:03

We do that. This is where we go back and forth with the property. She just talked about the kids wanting to keep. To me, it just it’s a messy situation, right? It’s a very expensive house as far as it’s worth a lot of money. If we lose the tenants there now, it’s the same mortgages. What? We’re paying at our new house down in Nevada.

00:31:24:05 – 00:31:44:28

So if we had a three month vacancy. Right. I’m paying two mortgages. Can I sustain it? Yes, but for how long? Right. The the weight of that, doesn’t it wears on me. Right. And then my biggest thing is this, in a perfect world, we’re. And I see the kids wanting to keep this property. Right. They’re going to grow up.

00:31:44:28 – 00:32:10:02

They’re going to have their own families. To me, it’s just going to create issues with the kids, right? There’s going to be animosity because we’ll only one family’s going to get it. So now we’re getting creating potential problems for our kids in the future versus if we were to sell that property, we can a pay off our primary residence now and have B mortgage free be pay a portion of it and invest the rest of the money.

00:32:10:02 – 00:32:20:17

Or I mean really do whatever the heck we want to do buy a plex. If she wants to buy an apex, it just opens up way more possibilities by getting rid of that.

00:32:20:17 – 00:32:25:28

Ramit

How have you gone about making this decision about whether to sell the property or not?

00:32:26:00 – 00:32:43:08

We’ve discussed it. No. Yes we have, we’ve discussed it. She’s agreed to it twice and then went back and said, no, never mind. It doesn’t make sense. And then before being, asked to join you in your show, we were in the mentality that we were going to sell it. Okay. And then as of, like two weeks ago, I think she went back again and said, oh, no, never mind.

00:32:43:08 – 00:32:44:12

I don’t think it makes sense to sell.

00:32:44:12 – 00:32:46:05

Ramit

Why is that?

00:32:46:08 – 00:32:47:16

Ana

Because my son.

00:32:47:18 – 00:32:50:03

Ramit

Your 11 year old, what do you say?

00:32:50:05 – 00:33:01:16

Ana

He just has a lot of memories there. And then it makes it hard to sell a home, that he had memories. And he wants to be able to keep within the family.

00:33:01:18 – 00:33:03:02

Ramit

What do you say, exactly?

00:33:03:05 – 00:33:14:03

Ana

And 100. Oh, I remember coming down the stairs and are like, we watch some videos on my phone and I love this house. No. So.

00:33:14:06 – 00:33:19:19

Ramit

Okay, so it’s not just a financial decision for you.

00:33:19:21 – 00:33:21:13

Ana

Okay.

00:33:21:15 – 00:33:45:16

Ramit

I can see why it is tough to make progress on it. Everything is kind of intertwined. You pull on one question, it unravels, then there’s another one, then there’s another one. And each of them is kind of difficult. Your son, the complexity, the not knowing how much you actually have left over every month. It’s all just one thing.

00:33:45:16 – 00:33:52:07

Ramit

After another, which stops you from seeing clarity on the situation. What do you think I’m seeing when I’m hearing this?

00:33:52:09 – 00:33:54:04

I don’t know what are you seeing?

00:33:54:07 – 00:34:12:10

Ramit

You all have so many options on what you could do. The thing is, it it seems to me you are under analysis paralysis. You could do this. You could do that. There’s a good reasons to do it and not to do it. And so you’re stuck. How long have you been stuck talking about money and what you should do with it?

00:34:12:17 – 00:34:14:21

As long as I can remember to be honest with you.

00:34:14:24 – 00:34:15:20

Ramit

It feel good.

00:34:15:22 – 00:34:16:22

No, not at all.

00:34:16:22 – 00:34:25:26

Ramit

It’s kind of ironic that making all this money has not made you both feel better about it. What do you make of that?

00:34:25:28 – 00:34:43:28

It’s tough. Right? Because you would think getting the salaries that we get, or owning all these properties would, would open more doors and kind of let you relax. But it’s honestly a lot of pressure, right? Especially when you add your kids and family into the play. It’s just you, you you’re not just doing things for yourself anymore, right?

00:34:43:28 – 00:35:03:09

You’re doing it for the team and you don’t want to leave it in a situation, right? Going back to selling the house, like, I love that my son has all these memories and that he wants to keep the house. But he’s 11 years old. He doesn’t know the magnitude of owning a house that size comes, right? Not even just a mortgage, but the upkeep, right?

00:35:03:11 – 00:35:22:14

The maintenance. It’s a lot of responsibilities for him to try to keep a house that he has memories on. Right. And that’s how I see it. I don’t want it to come across that we’re not thankful for, for everything that we’ve been able to do, because we are very thankful. But it’s been a lot of hard work, and it’s even more work to keep it afloat, right?

00:35:22:14 – 00:35:24:11

To keep it going.

00:35:24:13 – 00:35:26:03

Ramit

Yeah. No one had anything.

00:35:26:09 – 00:35:43:22

Ana

It’s a lot of stress, a lot of tough decisions to make for everybody. But, that’s what we keep going in these circles, you know, and the like, when the emotions, you know, with the kids, it’s just makes it not as easy as for me to just mathematically be like, yep, that’s what we’re doing. Yeah.

00:35:43:25 – 00:35:48:20

Ramit

What do you remember about money growing up? What is your family say about it?

00:35:48:22 – 00:36:13:08

Ana

We never spoke about money. We came from a very low income. You know we came when we came to America. My parents didn’t speak English. So it’s not like they could get a job that they can make good money. So my dad did whatever he could to keep a house for us and food and just basic jobs, landscaping, car wash and stuff like that.

00:36:13:08 – 00:36:14:23

Ramit

So how old were you?

00:36:14:25 – 00:36:15:09

Ana

Seven.

00:36:15:15 – 00:36:18:19

Ramit

Seven. And what country did you come from?

00:36:18:21 – 00:36:20:11

Ana

Middle East Iraq. Okay.

00:36:20:14 – 00:36:27:21

Ramit

Seven years old. It’s like old enough to really notice and remember things. What were some of the first things that you noticed that surprised you?

00:36:27:23 – 00:36:55:04

Ana

We went back home. We didn’t go to school. So coming here and just going to the schools here and just seeing kids in different clothing than you and you was like, wow. Yeah. How come I don’t have that, you know? So but my dad did everything he could to provide for us. So I’m grateful for that. I think that’s what makes it hard for us, because I want to give my kids we didn’t have so it’s just, challenging coming from that kind of background.

00:36:55:04 – 00:37:00:17

Ana

And then the. And that’s was kind of hard for me to know when to start, because my dad never did.

00:37:00:19 – 00:37:01:28

Ramit

He never stopped.

00:37:02:01 – 00:37:04:25

Ana

Till this day. He’s 78. Still works.

00:37:04:28 – 00:37:06:09

Ramit

What did he say?

00:37:06:11 – 00:37:10:24

Ana

I think he’s thankful. He still has his legs and his arms. And he’s out there doing whatever he needs to do.

00:37:10:24 – 00:37:15:09

Ramit

So what do you say to him? You tell him to keep working.

00:37:15:12 – 00:37:28:19

Ana

I don’t want him to work. But he says it keeps you young. So he, He likes to go out there and just do physical work and stay young and still make money. Yeah.

00:37:28:22 – 00:37:37:14

Ramit

Do you remember them talking about money? Your family? No. No. Fighting. What was it like? What’s the culture of money in your family when you were young?

00:37:37:16 – 00:38:13:08

Ana

My mom raised all of us. I had a big family. Four sisters, two brothers. So one small house my mom cooked. We ate school back home. I never saw the, my mom actually talk about money with my dad or my dad with my mom. Not the way we discuss it obviously. I think I want to educate my kids on money because I feel like the world has changed so much and it’s just so much harder to make it in life that being educated is going to get you where you want to go, you know?

00:38:13:10 – 00:38:20:05

Ana

So I feel like a mom and dad gave us what the basics. Right? Like, hey, hard work, go out there and do it.

00:38:20:08 – 00:38:28:21

Ramit

Do you recognize how much you have accomplished, considering especially that you came to the US as a seven year old?

00:38:28:24 – 00:38:48:15

Ana

Oh yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. Like I said that I have to thank my mom and dad for that because even though they didn’t physically sit down and talk to me, I saw a lot of the things that my dad did for us and and then bringing us to America and have given us the opportunity for me to graduate.

00:38:48:15 – 00:39:01:02

Ana

I graduated from ASU all by myself, no student debt and just saving, working hard job after job after job and putting money away. I think I get that from my mom because she was the money handler. My dad worked here.

00:39:01:02 – 00:39:02:13

Ramit

You go to your mom. So life?

00:39:02:15 – 00:39:03:25

Ana

Yeah, there was still life.

00:39:03:28 – 00:39:05:01

Ramit

What is her life like now?

00:39:05:04 – 00:39:10:29

Ana

She’s good. Lives with my brother. My dad, grandkids.

00:39:11:01 – 00:39:14:11

Ramit

Is she relaxed?

00:39:14:14 – 00:39:20:25

Ana

Now, I think she still stresses on life. Yeah.

00:39:20:27 – 00:39:23:13

Ramit

Like her daughter.

00:39:23:15 – 00:39:25:21

Ana

Maybe she. There’s something that needs working so much.

00:39:25:21 – 00:39:28:06

Ramit

She tells you that all the time. Oh, wow.

00:39:28:08 – 00:39:28:25

Ana

I’m saying.

00:39:29:01 – 00:40:00:16

Ramit

Because it’s notable to me that the way you described your childhood and growing up, like it was quite rushed. I don’t know if you caught that. And just like recounting and moving, moving through it, skipping over it. And I appreciate that you appreciate your parents because they did something that none of us will do. But I noticed it among my friends who have immigrant parents, it’s very tough for them to relax.

00:40:00:18 – 00:40:18:01

Ramit

It’s very tough for them to feel a sense of ease like, oh, and I can see that with you, even with your body language. You told me right at the beginning, I want to be able to relax, but I don’t know if I believe it. I think maybe you like being stressed. I think it’s maybe what you’ve known.

00:40:18:04 – 00:40:19:15

Ana

And says all the time.

00:40:19:18 – 00:40:22:28

Ramit

I wonder if you relax, if you would even know what to do.

00:40:23:00 – 00:40:23:20

Ana

I don’t know.

00:40:23:22 – 00:40:26:11

Ramit

And it doesn’t surprise me that your mom hasn’t relaxed either.

00:40:26:13 – 00:40:26:29

Ana

00:40:27:01 – 00:40:29:03

Ramit

If you never saw modeled, how would you do it?

00:40:29:05 – 00:40:32:14

Ana

I mean, I guess there’s one thing I didn’t learn. Yeah, or haven’t learned.

00:40:32:16 – 00:40:35:19

Ramit

What is your relationship with money today? How would you describe it?

00:40:35:23 – 00:40:53:02

Ana

I just feel like not enough. I need to just keep going and make more money and be able to just. I don’t know, it’s hard. I think my relationship with money is hard because I don’t I can’t say I don’t like spending it. I’m like saving it.

00:40:53:05 – 00:40:54:08

Ramit

And then.

00:40:54:10 – 00:40:56:13

Ana

Saving it for the future for the kids.

00:40:56:15 – 00:41:01:11

Ramit

Is your future basically over? And now it’s about the money for the kids?

00:41:01:14 – 00:41:15:11

Ana

No, I mean, what I would like is when we know where and I don’t know, I guess kids, they’re not good standing. But I would like to just spend time just traveling like Jay likes to do.

00:41:15:13 – 00:41:17:00

Ramit

So you want to travel together?

00:41:17:02 – 00:41:18:20

Ana

Yes, I that’s okay.

00:41:18:22 – 00:41:21:00

I now I’m traveling myself. She’s at home.

00:41:21:03 – 00:41:27:08

Ramit

I’m sorry. I didn’t mean together. But you’re telling me the two of you would like to travel and do you both agree on that?

00:41:27:08 – 00:41:27:20

Yes.

00:41:27:20 – 00:41:32:20

Ramit

Yeah. Okay. Can you tell me, is there a path from where you are today to that?

00:41:32:22 – 00:41:54:08

Ana

I want to say yes. It should be a path. I feel like we’re pretty smart individuals that have done a lot in our lives to where once I figure out what it is about me, haven’t been able to stop and just move forward and be able to relax and then and travel. AJ I just haven’t found that path.

00:41:54:08 – 00:41:54:15

Ana

Yeah.

00:41:54:19 – 00:42:00:10

Ramit

Do you do a lot of all or nothing thinking like it’s either got to be perfect or I’m not going to do it at all.

00:42:00:12 – 00:42:04:22

Ana

No. Okay. I think I’m a a worrier. I do worry a lot.

00:42:04:25 – 00:42:07:15

Ramit

Yeah. You worry about money, you worry about your kids. And it’s.

00:42:07:15 – 00:42:13:07

Ana

I think, a good. What if. What if this happens? What if this happens? What if this happens. That’s more my mindset.

00:42:13:07 – 00:42:15:11

Ramit

Do you like worrying about money.

00:42:15:13 – 00:42:16:12

Ana

No not at all.

00:42:16:14 – 00:42:19:18

Ramit

No no no worry or ever since. They like it.

00:42:19:20 – 00:42:21:08

Ana

No I will say so.

00:42:21:08 – 00:42:27:29

Ramit

If you were not a worrier about money, if you did not worry, who would you be?

00:42:28:01 – 00:42:33:27

Ana

That’s tough, because that’s been me all my life. So it’s hard to say what I would be.

00:42:33:27 – 00:42:53:29

Ramit

Spoken like a true worrier. What you just said is exactly what every worrier says. They worry about money. It is part of their identity. So much so that when I asked them, who would you be if you were not a worrier? They don’t know. And usually it’s not only who they are today, it’s who they observed in their parents.

00:42:54:01 – 00:42:54:29

Ana

Oh for sure.

00:42:55:01 – 00:42:59:07

Ramit

And J, what do you remember about money as a kid? Would your family say.

00:42:59:10 – 00:43:29:09

So similar story to Anna, first generation here. A little bit shorter trip, though. We came from Mexico. I moved here actually, right around the same age as her seven years old. Money was always looking back. I felt like I was treated like something evil. Right. We had a couple family members that had money, and I just remember as a kid that they were always talk bad about, you know, they’re stingy or they’re, you know, they never buy this or buy that, and they have all this money.

00:43:29:09 – 00:43:55:23

Right? And my mom was a house cleaner, and my dad started as a landscaper and then got into pool construction from seven till about 13 years old. It was all hand me down clothes from, the people my mom worked, clean houses for. And it wasn’t till about I turned 13, started middle school, or my dad started making better money when he started doing pool construction, and, was finally able to afford, you know, nice stuff.

00:43:55:23 – 00:44:13:28

Right. And I remember clearly, because that’s when, right, when you kind of start caring what you look like when you get into middle school. So always were living in a two bedroom apartment with my younger brother and my mom and dad. I mean, I never went hungry. We always had a roof over our head, but we never really had much.

00:44:13:28 – 00:44:27:09

Right when my dad started making money, I think this is where my car vice came from. He started buying cars, right? Got a car for him and for my mom. And then they had the nice new cars and, that was the first thing that we got as a family. That was kind of a pride, right? Like, oh, cool.

00:44:27:09 – 00:44:36:00

We can we can afford something nice now, but definitely never talked about savings. I was the one that kind of introduced them one, two, four, one K and definitely not financially literate. Do you.

00:44:36:00 – 00:44:36:17

Ramit

Like money.

00:44:36:24 – 00:44:38:24

I love money, wow. Yeah.

00:44:38:27 – 00:44:42:16

Ramit

And a do you like money? Yes. You love it.

00:44:42:18 – 00:44:44:07

Ana

I want to say I love it, but okay.

00:44:44:13 – 00:44:53:07

Well let me let me redefine that. I love what money can get me right. Money can get me freedom. Money can get me experiences. So I love what money can bring.

00:44:53:09 – 00:45:14:07

Ramit

Hey did you catch it. They’re the same age. And that they came to the US at basically the same age. What I don’t think they mentioned is that they actually have the exact same birthday. This is quite amazing because growing up, even though they grew up in different countries, they grew up in kind of similar upbringings. Parents not talking about money.

00:45:14:09 – 00:45:47:26

Ramit

And yet the way they treat money is markedly different. And there are some gender issues here. We often see the person who is protective and fearful about money tends to be women. We often see people who spend more, invest more, tend to be men. Not always, but that’s common. When I speak to couples. It is striking to me that depending on how you grow up, you might react by being a spender or a saver, as they like to call it, but you can’t predict which one will happen.

00:45:48:00 – 00:46:10:24

Ramit

In fact, when they talk about their kids, I would say it’s hard to predict which of their children will spend money or hoard it, which of them will have a healthy relationship with money or not. And I’ll be very curious if I end up speaking to their kids in, let’s say, 20 years, and see what their reaction to growing up with money in this family was.

00:46:10:27 – 00:46:13:13

Ramit

What is the rich life for each of you?

00:46:13:19 – 00:46:41:17

My rich life is waking up without an alarm clock, right? Waking up at whatever time I see fit with Anna, having breakfast, relaxing, not having to rush to take a kid here or there, or a practice or go fix a toilet or an air conditioner. Just having the ability to not have plans that day. Just go about the day wherever it takes us.

00:46:41:17 – 00:46:51:24

Maybe go, go walk at a park or go on a vacation or whatever. You know, just spending time with her without having a backlog of duties.

00:46:51:24 – 00:46:54:04

Ramit

Okay, it sounds like retirement.

00:46:54:06 – 00:46:55:06

I don’t. Yeah. You’re right.

00:46:55:07 – 00:46:57:24

Ramit

Okay. Anna, what about you? What’s your rich life?

00:46:57:27 – 00:47:11:26

Ana

I don’t know, I just for me is my kids. I definitely want to set them up once that’s taken care of. I would love to vacation and hopefully have grandkids one day and just be able to just relax.

00:47:12:00 – 00:47:13:03

Ramit

How long till you can do that?

00:47:13:04 – 00:47:13:27

Ana

I don’t know.

00:47:13:29 – 00:47:16:10

Ramit

I mean, what if I told you you could relax today if you wanted to?

00:47:16:15 – 00:47:17:23

Ana

I don’t think I can.

00:47:17:25 – 00:47:29:28

Ramit

You don’t believe it because, I mean, theoretically, if you sold all the properties and y’all just invested the money, you don’t need to work again.

00:47:30:01 – 00:47:31:23

Ana

What about the kids?

00:47:31:25 – 00:47:33:02

Ramit

You tell me. What about them?

00:47:33:05 – 00:47:44:07

They’d still be fine. I mean, this is something. I’m glad you’re saying it, because we’ve had this conversation that you just completely writes it off like that’s ludicrous, right? And but you’re right. We’ve got enough equity, and the kids would be more than taken care of.

00:47:44:14 – 00:47:46:16

Ramit

Do you believe that?

00:47:46:19 – 00:48:14:15

Ana

No, because everything just costs more money now. A so you know my youngest is 11. It’s like our seven more years before he becomes an adult. So that’s another seven years of us making sure we do everything in our power to provide for him and the sisters. And then once you know they’re adult I would still like to contribute to college, buying a house, getting married.

00:48:14:19 – 00:48:16:27

Ana

Yeah. I want to be able to provide for them.

00:48:16:29 – 00:48:18:25

Ramit

So then you should work for the rest of your life.

00:48:18:27 – 00:48:20:16

Ana

The other thing Jake once said.

00:48:20:18 – 00:48:22:07

Don’t let me into the home.

00:48:22:09 – 00:48:29:28

Ana

I think that’s what Jay’s been trying to convince me to know. What is the age that you do want to start?

00:48:30:00 – 00:48:30:25

Ramit

So what is it.

00:48:30:27 – 00:48:31:17

Ana

I don’t.

00:48:31:19 – 00:48:50:26

Ramit

Okay. Right now, it’s never. It is if if the goal is I want to provide for my kids, which means I want to pay for everything from now until they die, which is kind of what you’re saying. You said you want to everything from now until he goes to college. If he goes to college, you going to pay for college?

00:48:50:29 – 00:48:55:28

Ramit

If he gets, are you going to pay for the wedding? Pay for a house? Probably pay for a car.

00:48:56:01 – 00:48:57:15

Ana

I would like to help.

00:48:57:18 – 00:49:00:29

Ramit

If he says I want to buy a $500,000 house, how much are you going to give him?

00:49:01:02 – 00:49:04:18

Ana

I don’t know, 20% of their house payment on the house.

00:49:04:19 – 00:49:20:24

Ramit

Okay. They’re going to buy, let’s say, $1 million house for 200 K each. So that’s 600 K for that. Great weddings. Each going to be 50 K fair 150 K there. We’re up to 750 K. What else. Car. You’re going to buy him a car.

00:49:21:01 – 00:49:28:04

Ana

I don’t know what all I want them to still be able to provide for themselves too. I don’t want to do everything okay.

00:49:28:04 – 00:49:30:12

Ramit

No car college. You’re going to pay for the college, right?

00:49:30:14 – 00:49:31:07

Ana

So if they want to go to college.

00:49:31:07 – 00:49:43:19

Ramit

So each of them, let’s say 150 K fair 450 K, now we’re at a million. So let’s say you have a check for a million bucks and you put it aside for the kids. Now are you ready to relax?

00:49:43:21 – 00:50:03:13

Ana

I mean, I want to say yes, but I know myself, I am I want to still keep going until I know. I don’t know, I guess, I guess I don’t know, I don’t know. Realistically, when I’ll be content to just let it go and never. Yeah.

00:50:03:16 – 00:50:06:16

Ramit

I’m telling you. You know how many people I talk to you. The answer is.

00:50:06:16 – 00:50:08:13

Ana

Never. So how do you change them?

00:50:08:16 – 00:50:12:23

Ramit

That is a very good question. What do you think? Do you want to.

00:50:12:23 – 00:50:17:08

Ana

Change in golfing course? Yes, of course I want to change. Okay.

00:50:17:10 – 00:50:24:08

Ramit

Paint a vision for me of the, in the future. The Anna who is. Describe her.

00:50:24:15 – 00:50:32:11

Ana

Not worrying about everything. Okay? What else is being able to go somewhere? Buy something. Now look at the name tag or price tag.

00:50:32:13 – 00:50:35:08

Ramit

Tell me what Anna does. Don’t tell me what in a dozen.

00:50:35:15 – 00:50:39:05

Ana

Look at everything. Worry about everything. Check every account.

00:50:39:12 – 00:50:41:27

Ramit

What is she? Where she. Where the same things is today?

00:50:41:29 – 00:50:43:16

Ana

Yes, because she’s pretty plain.

00:50:43:19 – 00:50:48:10

Ramit

Okay. And, she drive the same thing. She drives?

00:50:48:12 – 00:50:49:12

Ana

Yeah. Okay.

00:50:49:14 – 00:50:55:04

Ramit

Does she visit the same places on trips that she visits today?

00:50:55:07 – 00:50:58:13

Ana

I mean, I would hope she would want to see other places in the world.

00:50:58:15 – 00:50:59:13

Ramit

Where do you want to go?

00:50:59:15 – 00:51:01:23

Ana

There’s a lot of places I would love to see.

00:51:01:25 – 00:51:16:19

Ramit

It’s kind of striking to me if we can just kind of just, like, zoom out for a second. Like, what I’m trying to do right now is try to understand, in your ideal world, what would you do? And have you noticed what’s happening right here? What do you feel right now?

00:51:16:21 – 00:51:17:18

Ana

Confused.

00:51:17:21 – 00:51:40:16

Ramit

Yeah. It’s like no matter what I’m asking, there’s almost like a, shield up and you’re finding it very difficult. I’m asking you, what would you want to do? You’re telling me what you wouldn’t want to do? I’m asking, where would you want to go? And even that is like, I don’t know, someplace. So let’s let’s just all take a deep breath.

00:51:40:19 – 00:51:46:16

Ramit

There’s no wrong answer here. If you told me I want to go to Cincinnati for my rich life.

00:51:46:20 – 00:51:47:10

Ana

Yeah.

00:51:47:13 – 00:51:51:29

Ramit

In my head I’m going to go. What the. But out loud I’m going to say that sounds amazing.

00:51:51:29 – 00:51:52:19

Ana

00:51:52:21 – 00:51:57:17

Ramit

There is no wrong answer. It can be as small or as big as you would want, I think.

00:51:57:18 – 00:52:05:01

Ana

Why we travel I like traveling a lot where? Japan, Thailand. Greece. Cool.

00:52:05:03 – 00:52:07:06

Ramit

What would you eat at these places?

00:52:07:08 – 00:52:10:11

Ana

Whatever authentic food they have cooked, the main dish.

00:52:10:11 – 00:52:14:28

Ramit

And day to day living. What would you do differently?

00:52:15:00 – 00:52:27:23

Ana

I know I like to go to the markets and get some good food and ingredients and go back home and teach the kids and mother recipes and just relax with them.

00:52:27:23 – 00:52:31:03

Ramit

Nice. What about without them? Just the two of you.

00:52:31:05 – 00:52:32:21

Ana

Sit down on a couch to watch a movie.

00:52:32:27 – 00:52:39:09

Ramit

Nice. Can you do that now? No, I’m falling asleep.

00:52:39:12 – 00:52:45:01

Ramit

But if you. If you did it, let’s say I don’t know, the middle of the day. Could you do it? No.

00:52:45:01 – 00:52:48:15

Ana

How come there’s a thousand things I could be doing?

00:52:48:17 – 00:52:49:25

Ramit

Oh. Like what?

00:52:49:25 – 00:53:03:04

Ana

Kids. Sports, running errands, managing the rental properties, fixing our house. Just there’s always something to do. There’s not enough hours in the day for me. I could tell you that,

00:53:03:07 – 00:53:04:15

Ramit

You like being busy.

00:53:04:17 – 00:53:07:02

Ana

Yes. Yeah I do when I don’t.

00:53:07:04 – 00:53:08:18

Ramit

Jay, what do you make of this?

00:53:08:20 – 00:53:26:16

I mean, she’s being honest, and it sucks because I’m the same way. All right, one of the reasons we moved to Nevada from California was to slow down life, right? Because we felt like it was high paced in California. And we we thought, here we go to Nevada. We get to save some money on taxes and also slow down things.

00:53:26:19 – 00:53:40:00

You know, be in an area where the kids can be a little bit more self-sufficient. They can walk to and from school and they are less reliant on us. And it just feels like I mean, we came to the realization a few weeks ago, we’re like, man, it doesn’t matter where we live, it’s us, right?

00:53:40:00 – 00:53:41:18

Ramit

Wow. You realize that I did?

00:53:41:18 – 00:53:56:04

Yeah, I was like, no matter what we do, we’re always going to have something to do. And it’s sad because when one of us finally does, you know, manage to just wear each other out and we sit down in the middle of the day, just take a breather. The other one will call the other one out. Like what?

00:53:56:09 – 00:54:11:22

What? Why are you resting? You know, and it sucks. It does. Right? She’s done it to me and I’ve done it to her. And it’s like I’ll catch myself after I do it. I’m like, what the hell’s wrong with you, man? Like letter. Let her relax. Like we don’t always have to be. Go, go go. I mean, we were outside yesterday to, what, 1030 at night?

00:54:11:22 – 00:54:16:08

The hanging string lights in the backyard to finish the project before we came down here with you. It’s just.

00:54:16:13 – 00:54:17:25

Ramit

Did you like it?

00:54:17:27 – 00:54:19:06

I like the outcome of it.

00:54:19:09 – 00:54:20:17

Ramit

Did you like doing it?

00:54:20:20 – 00:54:24:13

I don’t mind it. I we have done this for so long that it’s just the norm for me, right?

00:54:24:15 – 00:54:46:19

Ramit

I used to like sending emails to my newsletter. I would log in, I would type the whole thing, I would send a test, I would check it on my own personal email and make sure every link worked, and then send it out and watch the responses come in and the metrics. I really loved it and I was good at it today.

00:54:46:21 – 00:55:14:02

Ramit

I couldn’t tell you how to do it. Somebody on my team does it. There’s a QA process, there’s software. I don’t know what they’re using. I also don’t enjoy it as much, but I didn’t know that until I delegated it stepped away. What I do love is the responses like you love seeing the lights up. I love seeing the email in other people’s inboxes.

00:55:14:05 – 00:55:24:18

Ramit

I love seeing their response. I don’t have any joy anymore in the mechanics of sending it out. When I share that example, does it connect with you at all?

00:55:24:20 – 00:55:39:26

100%? It does, because there’s some projects that I’ve done that I’m like, I’m kind of over this, right? Yeah, this is not fun anymore. I show even notices like, why? Why are you doing it then? But then I know if I add in the cost of a contractor now, it’s a project we can do right now, and it’s.

00:55:39:28 – 00:55:41:22

I weigh the options that way.

00:55:41:25 – 00:55:45:03

Ramit

Is, part of your rich life having multiple properties?

00:55:45:09 – 00:55:49:23

It was early on. And now for me, it’s not. Okay.

00:55:49:26 – 00:55:50:22

Ramit

Anna.

00:55:50:24 – 00:55:55:12

Ana

I, I’m Neal. I enjoy the.

00:55:55:15 – 00:56:09:18

Ana

Fast pace of just being able to just take care of properties and do all that stuff and the wealth that it’s building. And, and like I said, I have the kids, so I would love to be able to keep them and teach my kids. Right.

00:56:09:24 – 00:56:11:13

Ramit

They like it.

00:56:11:16 – 00:56:12:18

Ana

One out of three.

00:56:12:25 – 00:56:42:04

Ramit

The reason I ask is, like the properties you bought obviously have done really well and have brought you to a place of serious wealth. But when I think about the rich life that you describe, Jay, it’s like not involving the properties very much at all. In fact, if anything, the properties are kind of opposite of what you’ve both mentioned wanting to relax.

00:56:42:06 – 00:56:45:28

Ramit

People who own multiple properties usually do not relax.

00:56:46:01 – 00:56:47:00

Oh I know.

00:56:47:03 – 00:56:55:20

Ramit

Yeah. So that’s why I’m asking. I don’t have anything against owning multiple properties per se. It’s just is it a part of your rich life?

00:56:55:23 – 00:57:12:12

For me, it’s not right. And we’ve had this conversation recently because we had the most turnover that we’ve ever had in one of our properties. And it was stressful, right? We had a tenant that stopped paying his rent. Right. So we had to work on being in California at the tenant friendly state. So it was tough trying to get him out.

00:57:12:12 – 00:57:31:26

We got lucky with him at the exact same time we had another tenant that that was moving out. So we had a lot of upfront costs getting the units, you know, cleaned out and ready for new tenants. We get good tenants for the most part. Right. So it took us three, four months of vacancy A. And I don’t want to be dealing with that when I’m truly retired.

00:57:31:26 – 00:57:40:02

Right. If I’m no longer working my W2 job and we’re only getting the income from the rental property, that’s that’s paying for, it’s going to be a lot tougher.

00:57:40:04 – 00:57:41:15

Ramit

Why are you keeping these properties?

00:57:41:18 – 00:57:52:20

I’m okay with keeping our triplex because that pays for itself. And my rich life includes that because that’s kind of a supplement. If we didn’t have any of the other income coming in that’s going to pay for.

00:57:52:24 – 00:57:55:03

Ramit

Okay, what about the rest? Anna.

00:57:55:06 – 00:58:02:00

Ana

I would like to keep it in the family for the kids to be able to have an option. If they wanted to move back to California.

00:58:02:04 – 00:58:04:01

Ramit

Would you rather give them that house or money?

00:58:04:05 – 00:58:07:23

Ana

Two out of the three bring up the house a lot. So I think.

00:58:07:25 – 00:58:08:11

Ramit

So. It’s that.

00:58:08:12 – 00:58:09:22

Ana

For me. Yeah. Okay.

00:58:09:24 – 00:58:35:17

Ramit

That house I, I ask my readers on, social media one time I was like, what would you rather inherit a house in an uncertain location? Maybe you have to split it with siblings, but a house or a portfolio of cash and stocks like 90 plus percent of them said stocks. But ironically, most parents think about passing along a house.

00:58:35:19 – 00:58:36:14

Ramit

What do you think of that?

00:58:36:18 – 00:58:48:09

Ana

No, I agree with that. With the outcome, because Jay says the same thing. It’s better we just sell these properties and put them in, and that’s fun for them. And when they’re older, let them do what they want to do with the money.

00:58:48:09 – 00:59:09:10

There’s a lot of phantom costs, yes, that come with owning a home, especially at home the size of the one that we keep talking about. It’s a 40 200 square foot house. I’m putting myself in my kid’s shoes and I’m like, man, okay, cool. I got my house from when I was a child, but now it comes with all this extra work that I didn’t really sign up for versus, hey, here’s.

00:59:09:13 – 00:59:12:01

Ramit

Here’s $1 million or more.

00:59:12:04 – 00:59:12:24

00:59:12:26 – 00:59:14:05

Ramit

Up to you what you want to do with it.

00:59:14:05 – 00:59:18:22

And kids if you’re watching this, that doesn’t mean you automatically get the money. You still have to work and go to school.

00:59:18:22 – 00:59:40:02

Ramit

That’s right. Tell him what do you think about that. There’s all these phantom costs. There’s property taxes that might adjust. And we’re talking about not giving it to one kid, but three. Right. Which has become incredibly complex, unfair. One kid can’t afford it. The other one doesn’t want to maintain the upkeep. I’m not trying to scare you.

00:59:40:07 – 00:59:40:17

Ana

Yeah.

00:59:40:18 – 00:59:41:08

That’s reality.

00:59:41:08 – 00:59:50:08

Ramit

I’m just saying, like, these are very, very common, in fact, is the easy way that, kids break up and stop talking to each other because their parents did not do effective planning.

00:59:50:11 – 00:59:51:04

Ana

Yeah.

00:59:51:06 – 01:00:02:02

Ramit

What a tragedy for a couple who has millions and millions, millions of dollars. And we’ll have millions more to just be like, here’s here. But actually, you’re not giving them a gift. You’re giving them a curse. What do you think about that?

01:00:02:06 – 01:00:18:28

Ana

I mean, that part is scary. Because like you said, especially if they’re not, interested in learning the mechanics and the amount of money that you need to upkeep the property, that’s the part that does kind of worry me.

01:00:18:28 – 01:00:27:27

Ramit

Three out of three. Yeah. Would have to. And they have shown no indication. The only one who shows it is the young one who doesn’t really know what it takes.

01:00:27:29 – 01:00:31:11

I don’t know if Anna remembers this, but we’ve we’ve straight up asked them.

01:00:31:14 – 01:00:32:02

Ramit

What they say.

01:00:32:09 – 01:00:40:13

Like, hey, what do you guys prefer? And two out of the three said, I’ll take the money, right? This has been an ongoing topic since we moved to Nevada and out of that house.

01:00:40:20 – 01:00:59:17

Ramit

What are you thinking? I mean, I don’t want to pressure you because it’s your house and you’ll decide. But it seems like this house among the other ones, what I feel a bit of is a sense of the tail wagging the dog. You bought this house and now this house has become the thing that is causing more work.

01:00:59:17 – 01:01:20:02

Ramit

It’s causing more stress for the kids. It’s you’re putting all this time and stuff into it for a future some day where the kid might have it. But then what about the other two? And I’m just like so much energy and being focused on this house instead of that rich life which could be so many other things. What do you think?

01:01:20:05 – 01:01:40:25

Ana

I mean, I agree with you. I wish it was easy for me to just be like, yeah, let’s sell all these properties and do it. But I just, I think, holding on a little bit longer and making sure kids are a little bit older, like you said, I feel like they’re at a stage right now where they don’t really know how old.

01:01:40:28 – 01:01:44:26

Ana

I don’t know adult like what? Over the age of 18. 19.

01:01:44:28 – 01:01:49:27

Ramit

So at 20 years old, you make a decision that’s eight years from now.

01:01:50:00 – 01:01:50:27

Ana

01:01:51:00 – 01:02:08:03

Ramit

How do you feel about that? I don’t mind if it’s 20 or 25. I don’t even mind if it’s 30. What I mind is in order for you to move forward you have to start making some decisions. And even if you’re wrong about some of them, you have to make decisions. Right now, it’s there are no decisions being made.

01:02:08:03 – 01:02:35:17

Ramit

It’s just doing more of the same. Very common with immigrants. You both are taught from your parents. Just keep going. Head down. Just keep going. Oh, something’s not working out. Double down. Work harder. That’s fine. That’s why so many immigrants are successful. But a certain point, it actually is nonsensical to do that. In America, especially among top performers, rest can be seen as gluttonous.

01:02:35:19 – 01:02:57:00

Ramit

What are you up to today? What’s your plan for the week? What’s your productivity system like? For example, when people say to me, oh, you must be really busy and I go, no, I’m actually pretty relaxed and you can see it in their eyes. They’re like confused. But Ramit is the CEO. I will teach you to be rich guys on TV, and he’s just like, no, I’m actually not that busy.

01:02:57:04 – 01:03:25:05

Ramit

I don’t feel proud about being busy. When I was a kid, we used to call my dad at work and he would pick up the phone and he would talk to us for ten minutes, 20 minutes, 40 minutes. I don’t think he ever once said, okay, I have to go. If we called, he was there to talk. And that really inspired me that I can choose to not be busy, or I can choose to put the people in my life first and not tell them how much stuff I have going on.

01:03:25:12 – 01:03:47:21

Ramit

In America. We get a lot of value, not only from how busy we are, but how tired we are. Do you realize how absurd that is? How’s it going? Oh, things are crazy. Oh, you must be exhausted. Yeah, it’s work is nuts. You’re never going to hear me say that. Even if things are incredibly busy. That is not how I identify myself.

01:03:47:22 – 01:04:15:06

Ramit

In fact, I actually think it speaks more to not being in control of what’s going on around me. Then as a source of pride. I’m not impressed by the two of them telling me they can’t find time to relax. I’m not dazzled by the idea that their dream is to one day relax. I’ve talked to too many couples who have a dream of traveling and relaxing and doing all these things when they’re 60, and then one of them dies.

01:04:15:08 – 01:04:35:03

Ramit

What kind of life is it to wait when you’re a multimillionaire to relax? You can’t even watch a movie on a weekday. Surely there must be another way. There is more to life than being busy. And in fact, if it’s up to me, it’s not a point of pride. Stop bragging about how tired you are. You. It’s nonsensical.

01:04:35:03 – 01:04:44:06

Ramit

When I look at your CSP and I see a net worth of $4 million and I hear you stringing up lights $4 million at age 41.

01:04:44:10 – 01:04:45:26

Let me put it like that.

01:04:45:28 – 01:04:47:28

Ana

It’s it’s bad.

01:04:48:00 – 01:05:07:03

Ramit

It’s absurd. It’s actually doing yourselves and your kids a disservice. Why should they have to deal with parents who are tired? Because they were up till ten, 30 or 11 stringing up lights when they could pay someone 1500 bucks to do this and not deal with it. And in fact, they would learn more effectively because they’re parents would be showing them how to manage money.

01:05:07:03 – 01:05:22:27

Ramit

You’re not showing them how to manage money, you’re showing them how to be scared of it. Yeah. Hard work. That’s great. They learn hard work. But if you want to succeed now at this income and wealth level, it’s not only about hard work, it’s about knowing when to delegate. It’s about knowing that sometimes we don’t actually need to even do this.

01:05:22:29 – 01:05:30:02

Ramit

But you’re just operating on the old playbook. Work harder. What do you think?

01:05:30:04 – 01:05:46:15

Ana

I mean, when you put it that way, it’s it opens your eyes. I mean, we could, hire somebody to do it, but at the same time, I mean, our son was actually out there with us doing it, so he was enjoying it. That’s cool for me. I think it’s quality time, too. Okay.

01:05:46:18 – 01:05:57:15

Ramit

Then let’s put that example aside. How about all the other stuff, the fixing the AC in the dishwasher and this in the screening, the tenants and all these millions of things that you’re doing which don’t allow you to even watch a movie.

01:05:57:18 – 01:06:05:27

I think I gave you grief last time you made me fix the air conditioner. I was like, man, I could just cause somebody is going to cost me a hundred bucks and I happily pay that. And you’re like, no, I just give it a shot.

01:06:05:28 – 01:06:06:26

Ramit

100 bucks.

01:06:07:03 – 01:06:09:11

Probably. It’s like an $89 service for you. And.

01:06:09:11 – 01:06:10:08

Ramit

And you didn’t do it.

01:06:10:11 – 01:06:13:00

And she made me fix myself. I mean, it was an easy fix, but.

01:06:13:02 – 01:06:23:08

Ramit

This identity thing is really interesting that the two of you are stuck in your identities like you’re a fix it man. So you got to fix everything. When do you get to graduate beyond that?

01:06:23:14 – 01:06:35:24

Well, it’s not even that that I’m a fix it man. I just I gauge my disagreements with her. Right. Was it worth me to fight over $100, charge to have someone come do it, or just do it myself? I thought it’d be quicker for me to just to fix it.

01:06:35:24 – 01:06:37:18

Ramit

And you’re going to do that for the rest of your life?

01:06:37:21 – 01:06:38:22

You’re right.

01:06:38:25 – 01:06:47:26

Ramit

It would have been faster for me to send out emails myself until I decided I have bigger and better things on this planet to do. I’m not meant to be an emailer.

01:06:47:28 – 01:06:50:14

Ana

So when do you when did you learn?

01:06:50:16 – 01:07:05:02

Ramit

It took me a long time. I wish I had had somebody to tell it to me straight. Like I’m trying to do to you. Someone to say, you know, you’re good at this and you could do this for the rest of your life, and it will be incredibly rewarding for you. But how much are you leaving on the table?

01:07:05:04 – 01:07:22:13

Ramit

Because by forcing yourself to to do this, you are playing small. By having to check my emails. It’s very intoxicating because I’m good at it and I can click it and see the metrics. But I’m not learning how to go on YouTube. I’m not giving myself room to start talking to other people on a podcast. I’m not writing another book.

01:07:22:13 – 01:07:30:17

Ramit

I’m not doing XYZ, which turned into a Netflix show. You know, I’m sending emails. What is the equivalent for you?

01:07:30:19 – 01:07:34:07

Ana

The physical work. Yeah, doing all the work.

01:07:34:07 – 01:07:34:22

You’re right though.

01:07:34:28 – 01:07:47:09

Ramit

It’s it’s worked at couple that has $4 million. Should not be doing it. By the way, I’m not trying to convince you of this. You told me we want to let off the gas. Yeah. So how do you do it?

01:07:47:12 – 01:07:50:19

I believe it’s by selling some of the properties at all.

01:07:50:26 – 01:07:56:17

Ramit

Okay, so let’s say you sell some number of the properties. Great. You make some money. What are you gonna do with the money?

01:07:56:21 – 01:08:10:13

I believe we should pay off, if not all. At least a large chunk of our current residents. We have a lot that we purchased in Mexico. That’s going to be our retirement home. That we haven’t built yet. I would love to be able to build that house.

01:08:10:15 – 01:08:21:22

Ramit

All right. So you pay off the house. You have this other thing in Mexico. What about you and what would you do if you want to take your foot off the gas and relax.

01:08:21:24 – 01:08:26:07

Ana

Nothing. Everything Jay-Z. And just have a good cushion for each kid.

01:08:26:10 – 01:08:27:12

Ramit

How much?

01:08:27:14 – 01:08:28:18

Ana

I don’t that I don’t know.

01:08:28:21 – 01:08:36:20

Ramit

You know, the amount of money you’re talking about. You could end up handing over your tens of millions of dollars to your kids. Are you aware of that still?

01:08:36:23 – 01:08:37:10

Ana

Let’s do it.

01:08:37:17 – 01:08:39:18

I don’t want to do that. What the fuck?

01:08:39:20 – 01:08:55:21

Ramit

Who wants to burden their kids with tens of millions of dollars? They can’t. Even their parents can’t even hire somebody to string up lights. And you’re going to hand them $20 million each. Here. Good luck. You’re. Your kids are. That’s what you do, guys. You. Is this for real?

01:08:55:28 – 01:08:56:28

No.

01:08:57:00 – 01:09:15:05

Ramit

If you were to hand them the amount that we are talking about right now, considering you’re only 40, so you’re not going to hand them any substantial amount of money for at least ten years, which means it’s just compounding compounding company. And then they’re going to see their parents. All they do is work. Their parents do not know how to effectively use money.

01:09:15:07 – 01:09:36:17

Ramit

I mean, you have a nice living situation, that’s for sure. So they’ll know how to buy a big house. But like, how do you travel and appreciate it? Do they know? Maybe not. How do you know when to delegate or when to do it yourself? Do they know? No, because their parents don’t know. So you’re going to hand them 3 million, 5 million, 8 million.

01:09:36:17 – 01:09:38:29

Ramit

12 and what are they going to do with the money?

01:09:39:01 – 01:09:39:28

Ana

Spend it.

01:09:40:01 – 01:10:09:22

Ramit

Yeah. Or be scared and say I just need to save more. Maybe I need more. Maybe I need, yeah. By the time they’re 60, what do they have? $150 million. And they go, I don’t know if we can afford those Lunchables. Yeah. Maybe if we save up a little bit more. What is this? I think that your kids are at an age, and your wealth is at a level where the consequences of what you’re doing today are actually kind of predictable, and they’re not good.

01:10:09:24 – 01:10:23:14

Ramit

The amount of money we’re talking about is a substantial amount. I’m not sure that you have internalized how much money you’re going to have. So right now you have like $4 billion in net worth, how much you think you’ll have around aged 60.

01:10:23:16 – 01:10:25:19

Probably closer to eight ton.

01:10:25:22 – 01:10:41:11

Ramit

Probably more than that. A lot more than that. Well, let’s not even talk about selling the properties. Let’s just say at age 50 you will have $2.86 million. That’s at age 50, let’s say 55. You’ll have 4.3 million.

01:10:41:14 – 01:10:42:28

Is that just in our retirement funds?

01:10:42:28 – 01:11:01:13

Ramit

Just investing, not even the properties which will have, appreciated. And at age 66.3 million, that’s just 60. And you know what happens as it gets bigger and faster? Yeah. You can’t outrun the compound. So what happens then? 6 million turns into 12 million, 12 turns into 24, 24 turns into 48.

01:11:01:15 – 01:11:07:17

That’s why I want you to come here with me, because, again, you’ve kind of seen a little bit when we have these conversations, one on one at home, it’s.

01:11:07:17 – 01:11:08:20

Ramit

You get stuck.

01:11:08:22 – 01:11:15:21

You know, I’ve shown you the math for, you know, we’re not fire, but what our fire number would be if we wanted to retire. And we’ve surpassed that now.

01:11:15:21 – 01:11:20:01

Ramit

Yeah. You passed the number. Did it change how you felt?

01:11:20:04 – 01:11:23:07

Ana

No, no, no, because you’re just a number.

01:11:23:09 – 01:11:24:13

Ramit

Oh.

01:11:24:16 – 01:11:28:10

Ana

I don’t know. I guess just being able to let go.

01:11:28:13 – 01:11:31:25

Ramit

And should we calculate what happens if you sell the properties?

01:11:31:27 – 01:11:32:20

Please.

01:11:32:22 – 01:11:51:05

Ramit

Okay. Let’s run some calculations. Let’s just sell them all just for simplicity’s sake, okay? I know that, you know, you’re not going to sell your primary residence stuff, but, like, see what happens. Keep it simple and then you all can adjust from there. The thing is, while we’re running those calculations, 6 million is already a huge amount of money for millions.

01:11:51:05 – 01:11:55:20

Ramit

A huge six millions huge. Ten millions huge. Does it really matter at a certain point?

01:11:55:21 – 01:11:57:10

No.

01:11:57:12 – 01:11:58:17

Ramit

Like, what is the difference in money.

01:11:58:17 – 01:11:59:03

Than we need?

01:11:59:03 – 01:12:22:17

Ramit

Yeah. In your lifestyle from 4 million to 6 million. There is zero difference in lifestyle. Even 10 million. Zero difference. So it’s not about this, it’s about this. And that’s why in order to connect with this, which I suspect is a skill like you may not have learned, most of us don’t, especially when our parents immigrate. That’s not talked about.

01:12:22:17 – 01:12:26:19

Ramit

It’s like work. What are you talking about? Your feelings like that’s not a topic we talk about.

01:12:26:20 – 01:12:28:00

Ana

Okay, sure.

01:12:28:02 – 01:12:38:12

Ramit

But actually at these levels of wealth, you have to connect here. Because if you don’t connect here, then you just keep running and running and running.

01:12:38:15 – 01:12:39:19

Which is what we’ve been doing.

01:12:39:22 – 01:13:04:01

Ramit

Yeah. I actually think that it would be more valuable for you to learn this skill than to make an extra $5 million and pass it to your kids. The amount they’re going to get is already very large, whether it’s in the form of a house or cash or equity, to be able to get this with their parents who have united over money, who have been like, hey, this is what we did in the first chapter of our life, and we worked.

01:13:04:04 – 01:13:25:08

Ramit

So you taught them that work ethic. We worked, and then this is what we did next. That is an incredibly valuable lesson. Most kids do not have the luxury of learning that they see their parents work, and that’s what they see. That’s what you see from your parents, right? Your parents to you. And it’s good. I love work, but what about the next step?

01:13:25:08 – 01:13:27:02

Ramit

When do you earn the right to get to.

01:13:27:02 – 01:13:31:04

The next thing you work for a purpose, for sure. I agree with this.

01:13:31:06 – 01:13:33:23

Ramit

So while we’re pulling the numbers, Anna, how does it strike you.

01:13:33:29 – 01:13:45:04

Ana

That we’re good? That we could, like Jay’s been saying, we can stop if we really wanted to just sell the properties and enjoy life now, but.

01:13:45:06 – 01:14:03:27

Ramit

Sell, sell one, sell all you can. Choose what you want to do. You don’t have to do it all at once. But to me, the dream of just like taking a nap, it’s like so easy. Like that’s it. That if someone has said that to me, like Remy, your dream is to wake up one morning and not have to log in and do all this QA stuff for your that’s it.

01:14:03:29 – 01:14:25:08

Ramit

And I would have been like, yeah, but that’s so crazy. Like, I’m the only guy who can do it. And in their head they would have realized they would have seen ahead in a way that I could not see. Remy, you could be connecting with people in person. You could be recording a TV show. But I was playing so small and I was stuck sending emails, and that’s kind of the same thing I see here.

01:14:25:10 – 01:14:32:14

Ana

I guess that’s that’s the part for Jay. And I have to figure out how to learn. Yeah. Are you saying I mean, it’s hard.

01:14:32:16 – 01:14:41:15

I’ll stick to it more than anything because we’ve come to that conclusion. You’ve said, yeah, let’s do it. And then your mind changed in a couple of days.

01:14:41:17 – 01:14:42:08

Ana

Yeah.

01:14:42:10 – 01:14:57:24

Ramit

The mind changing is another example of scarcity. It’s the idea that I don’t think I got this right. I need to double back. What if I’m wrong? We should just stick with what we’re doing, and you just go right back and retreat back to the thing that you knew. Yeah.

01:14:57:27 – 01:14:59:17

Ana

You nailed it. Yeah.

01:14:59:20 – 01:15:00:25

It happens a lot.

01:15:00:27 – 01:15:02:10

Ramit

You guys, see a therapist?

01:15:02:16 – 01:15:03:10

We do.

01:15:03:12 – 01:15:05:05

Ramit

It’s good you talk about this kind of stuff.

01:15:05:12 – 01:15:06:01

No.

01:15:06:04 – 01:15:07:07

Ramit

01:15:07:10 – 01:15:10:03

No, no, not the money stuff. Good. You.

01:15:10:05 – 01:15:13:28

Ramit

It seems like it’s a very good opportunity to talk about this.

01:15:13:28 – 01:15:14:18

Ana

Yeah.

01:15:14:20 – 01:15:15:29

Ramit

Yeah.

01:15:16:01 – 01:15:24:18

It’s weird. I mean, like I said, having teenage kids, there’s. When stuff is kind of going sideways, you hyper focus on. Yes. Things that aren’t money.

01:15:24:18 – 01:15:46:28

Ramit

Related, of course. And this is indicative of of so much three kids, first of all a lot. And at that age in there is natural chaos to it. And you can’t predict and control everything. So okay. Well, except that probably the lack of connection around money shows up in other ways. Like, you know, it’s classic kind of story people.

01:15:47:03 – 01:16:14:16

Ramit

They’re like, fighting over, for example, like physical intimacy, but it’s like, not really about that. It’s about something much deeper. So this is where we get the chance to talk once, but you and your therapist can talk much deeper. And money is a manifestation of other things. And those other things manifest in money, like the chaos and like all these numbers being over here and there and not being able to commit to a decision.

01:16:14:18 – 01:16:48:26

Ramit

Let’s take a look at the numbers. If you sell it or and invest the money age 50, you would have $7.2 million. And that means you could safely withdraw at 3%. Like this is pretty conservative, about $216,000 a year. Okay, let’s keep going. 55 $10.2 million age 60 $14.5 million. And that’s just 60. You see how it turns into tens of millions?

01:16:48:29 – 01:16:53:16

Ramit

14 turns into 28 turns into 56 turns into over $100 million.

01:16:53:18 – 01:16:54:28

That’s insane.

01:16:55:00 – 01:16:55:28

Ramit

What’s going through your head right now?

01:16:55:28 – 01:17:01:26

Ana

And it’s crazy. I mean, I wish I was I don’t know, could do that. It’d be nice.

01:17:01:29 – 01:17:09:26

Ramit

I wish we had control of our own properties. I wish that we, as the home owners, could do what we wanted with our property.

01:17:09:26 – 01:17:10:10

Ana

It’s just.

01:17:10:11 – 01:17:11:26

Ramit

That would be so nice for me.

01:17:11:26 – 01:17:14:10

We bust out your magic wand that you have and just.

01:17:14:10 – 01:17:18:29

Ramit

I wish, I wish I had when nobody listens to me. Just go ahead. And I wish.

01:17:18:29 – 01:17:28:03

Ana

But it’s like you said. It’s like I just always go back and I’m okay. I need, I gotta do this. And then I’m just going back. I’m like, nope, I got to stick to this.

01:17:28:03 – 01:17:28:27

Ramit

What do you get out of it?

01:17:28:28 – 01:17:34:28

Ana

I think it’s fear. Yes, I think I think I’m just afraid of.

01:17:35:01 – 01:17:35:24

Ana

Messing up.

01:17:35:27 – 01:17:37:25

Ramit

Do you accept that you’re wealthy?

01:17:37:28 – 01:17:55:10

Ana

Yes. Well, I mean, Jason asks me all the time. I feel like we are. Because especially coming from my background. Right. I feel like I’m able to do a lot more for my kids that I didn’t have the opportunity to.

01:17:55:11 – 01:17:56:25

Ramit

Cover for you.

01:17:56:28 – 01:17:59:10

Ana

01:17:59:12 – 01:18:04:15

Ana

I’m not a spender, so I guess that’s hard for me to say.

01:18:04:17 – 01:18:13:29

Ramit

I’m a couple that has ten plus million dollars. Should each of them be a spender or not?

01:18:14:01 – 01:18:17:14

Ana

No. I think you need to have a saver and a spender to balance each other out.

01:18:17:16 – 01:18:20:23

Ramit

Oh, how about at 25 million? Do you need to have a saver?

01:18:20:24 – 01:18:26:10

Ana

Yes, because the spenders likes to spend too much money because now they’re at a different level.

01:18:26:11 – 01:18:33:16

Ramit

Can you spend that much? Could the two of you could the two of you spend? Could the two of you spend $2.5 million per year?

01:18:33:18 – 01:18:48:02

There’s no way. Even if I tried, you sure? I’m wearing a Costco shirt. And, $40 pants is like, I’m not. I’m not that big of a spender yet.

01:18:48:04 – 01:18:57:02

Ramit

All jokes aside. Yeah, I like saving, right? In our financial situation, I still have a savings number that I insist that we hit and we do.

01:18:57:04 – 01:18:57:26

Ana

01:18:57:28 – 01:19:19:05

Ramit

But I don’t define myself as being a saver anymore. I like to spend money. That’s what I get after decades of investing and working hard and making the right choices and being lucky. That’s what I get. I get to spend and I actually created some rules for myself to make it easier. Like when I go out to a restaurant, I don’t care how much anything costs.

01:19:19:06 – 01:19:25:13

Ramit

If I see it, I’m getting it. If I see three appetizers, I’m getting three of them. Can you see yourself ever getting to that?

01:19:25:16 – 01:19:40:02

Ana

I don’t think so. Okay. I think vacations, yes. Because I think Jay’s gotten me a little bit more lenient because we do have a really good couple friend that we enjoy. Yeah. Going to vacations and I think that’s probably where I can kind of relax.

01:19:40:07 – 01:19:47:29

Ramit

It’s interesting that to you, relax is some kind of nirvana, like some kind of place where you are not the person you are, but like the person that you are.

01:19:48:02 – 01:19:48:19

Ana

Thinking.

01:19:48:19 – 01:20:11:05

Ramit

I don’t think you need to be somebody else to be better. I actually think that it’s within you to maybe like, unlock parts of you that have been locked up because everybody can relax. Even your parents, they can relax. They may not know how. It may not be socially acceptable. They may have never seen it modeled, but they can if they were able to unlock it.

01:20:11:06 – 01:20:25:00

Ramit

What I’m trying to do here is to show you, yeah, the math is easy. There’s tens of millions of dollars. You all going to have more money than you ever know what to do with. But I’m trying to get you to maybe unlock part of this. I don’t know if it’s connecting.

01:20:25:03 – 01:20:26:24

Ana

Yeah, I’m not sure.

01:20:26:27 – 01:20:27:18

Can you work on.

01:20:27:18 – 01:20:31:18

Ana

It at least? I mean, I would love to eliminate.

01:20:31:21 – 01:20:36:20

Unless. It’s just like moving to Vegas with the being the mediator. Every time.

01:20:36:20 – 01:20:39:07

Ramit

I think that working on it is a great. I think that’s a great question.

01:20:39:15 – 01:20:40:01

Ana

Yeah.

01:20:40:03 – 01:21:00:08

Ramit

When my wife and I have had, issues where one of us needed to improve on something like we were really clear, hey, you need to work on this. Like, you’ve got to get good at this because this isn’t helping us go where we need to go. And and that’s hard to say because it kind of feels like mean and judgmental.

01:21:00:14 – 01:21:26:20

Ramit

It’s also hard to hear because, like, what do you mean? I have to work on it. But with time and and with practice and with the help of a therapist, where you can bring these kinds of things up, that’s great. You all are very accomplished. Obviously, this is a skill that I think, and, you have to build the ability to actually unlock parts of you that allow you to feel more joy and to feel more pride and not to assign it to your kids.

01:21:26:20 – 01:21:50:05

Ramit

In fact, talking about your kids and how you want to give your kids this and your kids for weddings and that’s actually an escape that allows you to avoid unlocking part of you. I’m talking about you, and what I want to hear from you is something like, I would love to be able to get my hair done once a month, or my nails, or I’d like to be able to go out to this hobby event with my friends and pick up the check.

01:21:50:07 – 01:22:12:14

Ramit

Like, actually, you’ve been working so hard for this money and it needs to be used. You need to give the money the respect that it deserves. Right now it’s languishing, locked up in a bank that’s not respecting it. It needs to be used for your rich life. J what is your reaction to what you’re hearing?

01:22:12:16 – 01:22:26:20

You mean you put it way more eloquently than I ever did? That’s exactly what I tell her. It’s, the money is depreciating in the bank right away. And that’s why I do kind of go overboard sometimes on the spending, because I know what I could buy today with that dollar is not going to be the same thing I could buy in next year.

01:22:26:22 – 01:22:32:26

Ramit

Do you see how that might also be contributing to. And, feeling a little bit scarce about money?

01:22:32:29 – 01:22:46:04

I could see that, but it’s always been an issue even before I got to the spending. I mean, I haven’t always spent this much, right? But even before we didn’t have as much as we do now. She’s she’s always been this way since she was 16, 17 years old. Right.

01:22:46:08 – 01:23:06:12

Ramit

Here’s what I propose. I propose that the two of you actually get clarity on how much you have every month. And I think you should actually make a plan for what to do with that. If you have $5,000 a month, and if you really want to pay off one of the mortgages a little early, okay, take some of that and put it towards that.

01:23:06:15 – 01:23:17:13

Ramit

But also you’ve got to spend some of it on fun and some of it has to be on just you. So for example, if you were to take $1,000 a month on just you, what would you do with it?

01:23:17:15 – 01:23:19:14

Ana

Maybe go to San Diego and hang out with my sisters.

01:23:19:19 – 01:23:22:16

Ramit

Nice. What else.

01:23:22:19 – 01:23:27:09

Ana

And just a nice dinner. And well I think just that just.

01:23:27:09 – 01:23:39:00

For me can I jump in real quick here because. So last year each of us opened our own separate savings account that we each put a little bit of money. Good. So she’s had well over $1,000 to spend and she literally has spent zero.

01:23:39:02 – 01:23:58:02

Ramit

Okay. This is a good example. Anna. When the money is there, I think the agreement that I think you should both come up with is that once that money is there, it has to be spent within a month. Now that’s scary because if it’s like $1,000 a month, I mean, your answer was Fly to San Diego and go to a restaurant.

01:23:58:09 – 01:24:22:01

Ramit

I’m like, I don’t think, Vegas to San Diego flight is even like 250 bucks. So you got dinner? What else? And you have to do this every month. My point is, it starts to become a skill that you have to build. Now, why am I forcing you to spend your money? Kind of. Because right now you’re really good at accumulating it, but you’re not good at spending it.

01:24:22:03 – 01:24:38:18

Ramit

You’re not. And that’s okay. It’s just a skill you haven’t developed. But I actually want you to do it for yourself. I want you to do it for the two of you, because you can see your husband is like, really serious about this, actually. Why don’t you do it for your kids to especially your daughters who need to see their mom.

01:24:38:18 – 01:24:46:08

Ramit

Actually enjoying the money that she worked for? What do you think they would do if they saw that?

01:24:46:10 – 01:24:47:12

Ana

I’d be happy.

01:24:47:15 – 01:24:55:28

Ramit

They’d be happy for you, It’s okay. It’s making you cry. When we talk about your daughter seeing you enjoy your money.

01:24:56:00 – 01:25:14:02

Ana

I don’t know, I just, I wish I could. I wish I could just do that, go out and just enjoy the money with my kids, especially my girls. And it’s just hard. It’s hard. It’s not something I’ve got to do. Let them know past me. From the way I was brought up with my mom, because I never saw her spend money.

01:25:14:05 – 01:25:16:23

Ramit

Would you have liked to to see her enjoy it?

01:25:16:26 – 01:25:18:06

Ana

Yes, I would.

01:25:18:09 – 01:25:22:06

Ramit

But your daughters would say the same thing.

01:25:22:08 – 01:25:45:18

Ramit

Yeah, I actually bet your daughters would love it if they asked you. Hey, mom, can we go out to lunch? And you said, sorry, I have a massage appointment I’m going to get to, so I can’t do it today. Maybe next week. I bet they would love it. At one point I asked my parents talking about their finances and I was like, you know, got to spend it.

01:25:45:21 – 01:26:04:16

Ramit

It’s important you worked hard. What are you doing with it? Like, and I put them on a travel plan, but the travel plan was they had to spend at least this much every month, and they were kind of resistant to it, probably like all of our parents. And, I was like, what are you gonna do with the money?

01:26:04:16 – 01:26:26:27

Ramit

And they were like, we’re going to give it to you. Like, why do I want your money? All of us have been successful because they came here and taught us the value of hard work. So we want them to spend every last cent while they are alive. And you all are 40. You know your prime spending years 40 to 6042.

01:26:26:27 – 01:26:51:15

Ramit

So you’re both mobile, healthy kids. Same for them. And who knows what happens after that. People get sick, people get injured. People have parents who they have to take care of and they can’t travel. What a gift to actually be able to spend that money thoughtfully, responsibly, but extravagantly in those prime spending years. So I know it’s hard.

01:26:51:18 – 01:26:57:05

Ramit

You didn’t come here because I was going to ask you easy things, but really important. What do you think?

01:26:57:08 – 01:26:59:02

Ana

I mean, I would love to work on that.

01:26:59:04 – 01:27:23:11

Ramit

There’s a skill that can be worked on. Do you see how difficult it is for Anna to even dream about what she wants? Like, it’s visceral and physical that she is struggling to come up with ideas. And I think this is striking, especially for everybody watching who initially started this video going, Boohoo, multi-millionaire couples, what a tough life.

01:27:23:13 – 01:27:41:19

Ramit

I want you to see that even when you have lots more money, it is very, very likely that you will also struggle with the mechanics and the psychology of money. Over and over. I show you couples that are in this situation and what do you say.

01:27:41:21 – 01:27:43:00

Ana

Or I meet so.

01:27:43:00 – 01:28:06:01

Ramit

Unrelatable. That’s not the point. I want you to look deeper. Why am I bringing these couples on my show? I am showing you a crystal ball into your future. You’re following my system. You’ve read my book. Your investments are automated. Soon enough, you’re going to have more money than you ever thought possible. Are you going to magically be in control of your money and your money?

01:28:06:01 – 01:28:27:01

Ramit

Psychology? No, not if you don’t work on it. And that’s what we see here. I actually really look forward to talking to you like in a year, hearing what you’ve done, what you’ve seen. It could be as small as we bought this little thing for our house. It makes life easier and as big as some big cool trip that you’re going to take.

01:28:27:03 – 01:28:43:10

Ramit

You could do it if you make some changes. What do you think will happen to the two of you? It could be selling one house. It could be selling them all. It could be selling none. But the two of you agree on your plan. And if you make those changes, what do you think will happen to your relationship?

01:28:43:12 – 01:29:01:19

I believe it only bring us closer, right? Because there is a lot of stress kind of looming. Our primary residence in one of the homes that we keep talking about selling is just it’s we’re talking about close to $12,000 in mortgages between the two properties, not just, you know, principal and interest. We’re not talking about all the other phantom costs.

01:29:01:19 – 01:29:14:17

So we went away with one of those I think would let her rest at ease a little bit more. A, she’s brought that up before, but I think she pushes back into her subconscious. But I think that alone, that would be a lot of weight off both of our shoulders.

01:29:14:19 – 01:29:24:25

Ramit

You know? Do you want to make a decision about that right now? I no, you want to look at the numbers more carefully. What’s going through your head?

01:29:24:28 – 01:29:32:23

Ana

You’re going I definitely don’t want to make any decisions that, like you said, I have a carefully thought about,

01:29:32:26 – 01:29:34:20

Ramit

How long have you been thinking about that one?

01:29:34:22 – 01:29:38:15

Ana

Two years. Okay. For over a year. Two? Yeah.

01:29:38:18 – 01:29:46:21

Ramit

Maybe just a few more months. It’s like. Do you feel nervous about making a decision?

01:29:46:23 – 01:29:55:22

Ana

Yes. Because just like Jesus, I don’t. I always live in the past. I always make a decision. And then I’m like, I shouldn’t have done that. Why did I do that? I would have done if I would have done this.

01:29:55:26 – 01:29:58:22

Ramit

Looking backwards, living in the past, was it get you.

01:29:58:24 – 01:30:01:27

Ana

Keep staying in the past. Keep thinking like I says.

01:30:02:00 – 01:30:04:15

Ramit

But what does it get you though? It must be something because you’re doing it.

01:30:04:17 – 01:30:07:06

Ana

I don’t know if it gets me anything positive, to be honest with you. Okay, well.

01:30:07:06 – 01:30:11:03

Ramit

It gets you something. You get, you control.

01:30:11:06 – 01:30:12:01

Ana

01:30:12:04 – 01:30:19:21

Ramit

Does it get you feeling like I’m smart because I see the angles of the things that I made a mistake on in the past.

01:30:19:23 – 01:30:20:10

Ana

Yeah. You’re right.

01:30:20:16 – 01:30:24:04

Ramit

Kind of like when I was writing those emails and sending them, it made me feel smart.

01:30:24:06 – 01:30:24:27

Ana

Yeah.

01:30:24:29 – 01:30:31:12

Ramit

Made me feel in control. But I was actually missing the bigger picture. The bigger opportunities.

01:30:31:14 – 01:30:32:21

Ana

Yeah, you’re right.

01:30:32:23 – 01:30:51:29

Ramit

I’m not going to tell you to stop living in the past. No one can change that quickly. But I would rather add something to your toolbox. What if you start living more in the future? The future? Right now, 40 to 60. That’s the prime spending years. If you could spend a little bit more, relax a little bit more, living your rich life, what would it be?

01:30:52:01 – 01:30:54:17

Ana

Would do more things for my girls.

01:30:54:19 – 01:30:55:28

Ramit

You got anything in mind.

01:30:56:00 – 01:30:59:27

Ana

When we take them to a spa. Oh you like a spa day with them letting her enjoy it.

01:31:00:00 – 01:31:01:18

Ramit

I like that. What would you tell them.

01:31:01:21 – 01:31:02:27

Ana

Let’s have fun.

01:31:02:29 – 01:31:05:14

Ramit

You just do this right now. Do you want to text him.

01:31:05:17 – 01:31:07:24

Ana

Yeah I would love that. Really?

01:31:07:26 – 01:31:14:26

Ramit

Okay. Pull out your phone. I think you tell me. What are you thinking of writing to them? This is a big moment. Yeah.

01:31:14:26 – 01:31:18:27

Ana

It is. Do you guys want to do a spa day with mommy?

01:31:19:00 – 01:31:39:07

Ramit

Okay, let’s pump it up even more. If they saw that they’re going to be like, who stole my mom’s phone? Right? Okay. This is such a great chance to tell them how much you love them. How lucky you are to have worked so hard that you can take them together.

01:31:39:09 – 01:31:49:08

Ana

She just read it, okay? She. Yeah, sure. What she’s saying. What’s wrong? Bro?

01:31:49:10 – 01:31:59:14

I was just gonna say read me. I don’t know how how much you text teenage girls, but it’s, I was kind of waiting for that kind of response. I guess you got bro and I, bro.

01:31:59:16 – 01:32:03:15

Ramit

Yeah, that’s a good start. What do you see in chick?

01:32:03:17 – 01:32:14:24

Ana

But we’d love to. But. What’s wrong? Oh, sorry, I read it wrong. What’s wrong though? Not bro. She does say bro all of the what’s wrong?

01:32:14:26 – 01:32:15:22

Ramit

What do you think she’s saying?

01:32:15:22 – 01:32:20:28

Ana

That I said I don’t really do.

01:32:21:01 – 01:32:42:08

Ramit

Yeah, it’s new for you. It’s almost like you’re trying on a new outfit. Even a new skin. It’s new for you. It’s okay that she says, what’s wrong? There’s nothing wrong. Nothing’s wrong at all. In fact, everything is right. Money is right. The two of you are right. You worked hard. You get a chance to take your daughters out for a spa day.

01:32:42:11 – 01:32:44:09

Ramit

Nothing’s wrong, I love you, that’s it.

01:32:44:11 – 01:32:52:11

Ana

Yeah. You went to Europe? Yeah. The last text.

01:32:52:14 – 01:33:02:15

Ramit

So you ask them. Would you like to do a spa day with mommy? She said yes. Sure. We would love to. What’s wrong though?

01:33:02:18 – 01:33:18:24

Ramit

Your response was awesome. Mommy and Poppy work really hard, and I would love to treat you and your other daughter to have some fun. And, your daughter wrote oh, okay. Yeah. Sounds good. Tell me I said hi and I love him.

01:33:18:27 – 01:33:21:23

Ana

Yeah.

01:33:21:26 – 01:33:32:15

Ramit

It’s a really cool way of connecting with your daughters differently. Really cool. I kind of love seeing how challenging that was for you. You did it. I’m really proud of you.

01:33:32:20 – 01:33:33:04

Ana

Thank you.

01:33:33:10 – 01:33:35:22

I am too, thank you.

01:33:35:24 – 01:34:00:13

Ramit

This is the beginning of changing your relationship with money. It’s funny because, you know, some people watching, like, I never saw somebody struggle. So much to go to a spa day, but actually, it’s you taking the first step towards a new identity. First for yourself. Next for the two of you. And the cool thing is, you’ve been talking about this for a long time, but sometimes it’s like, enough talking.

01:34:00:16 – 01:34:23:29

Ramit

You got to take one step. Do it, have fun, splurge, get the massage, and, then the two of you can work on your rich life together. Now, Anna, you mentioned you want to work on improving your relationship. This was a great start. What’s another way that you can commit to to keep really working on this?

01:34:24:01 – 01:34:27:12

Ana

I would say work last, but I know that’s that one’s more challenging.

01:34:27:12 – 01:34:56:17

Ramit

Okay, so it’s not that what’s something you can win at. No. I’ll throw some ideas up. If I’m in both of your situations I would a agree to make a decision about the houses within six weeks, long enough that you can run some numbers that short enough that that’s it. This is the decision we’re making. Boom. You can always revisit the decision a year from now, but if you decide to sell one house, you’re going to sell one house.

01:34:56:17 – 01:34:57:12

Ramit

Boom.

01:34:57:14 – 01:35:07:22

So can I ask a question about that? So what? How do we hold accountability on that. Right. Because this again, this is, something that we’ve already agreed to do multiple times.

01:35:07:22 – 01:35:24:19

Ramit

Well, I think you should agree to it here. Okay. And again, I’m suggesting six weeks. You might say four weeks. You might say eight weeks. But you should make an agreement now. And I think that you should follow up with this in weekly therapy. This you should talk about this probably the biggest decision you’re making in your family right now, 100%.

01:35:24:19 – 01:35:43:22

Ramit

Ultimately, it’s really making the decision. Yeah, that’s what matters. And you both got to feel good about it okay. So that’s what I would say. The next thing I would do is I would work on some individual therapy as well as the couples therapy that you’re doing. That is a way to commit to it. Hey, once a week I’m going to go see an individual therapist about this very topic.

01:35:43:25 – 01:35:54:13

Ramit

That’s a big commitment. It’s powerful. And then third, I might say once a month the two of us are going to watch a movie together just that.

01:35:54:15 – 01:35:57:21

Middle of the day for sure, so you can stay up.

01:35:57:23 – 01:36:14:19

Ramit

It’s like really simple in the grand scheme of things, but it actually profoundly changes the way that you’ve treated money before. Those are my suggestions. You don’t have to follow them. You can change them, skip them, whatever. But what do y’all think? Make some commitments in,

01:36:14:21 – 01:36:22:11

Ana

Going out? I think we could do six weeks, maybe pushing it on the rental properties, but I could try to work on that.

01:36:22:13 – 01:36:24:08

Ramit

Let’s pick a number.

01:36:24:10 – 01:36:28:15

Two month and a half. You don’t think you can make a decision a month and a half?

01:36:28:17 – 01:36:30:22

Ramit

Try that a different way. Try encouraging.

01:36:30:25 – 01:36:46:23

I believe you are a very intelligent person, and I believe that a month and a half should is sufficient time for you to be able to make, a decision on whether or not we sell that property. What do you think?

01:36:46:26 – 01:36:47:21

Ana

Yes.

01:36:47:24 – 01:37:13:07

Ramit

Great. Great. I can tell it’s, scary to even commit to making a decision. I want to encourage you. And you will discuss this probably with the therapist. That what scares you is probably the very thing you need to do. Like starting to make definitive, decisive decisions is actually the thing that’s going to get you out of this paralysis.

01:37:13:10 – 01:37:31:13

Ramit

It feels so good to make decisions, feels really good. It’s a skill. It’s like like you taught your kids to ride a bike. Oh, it’s so scary. Oh my God, I can never do it. No, it feels really good to pedal. You’re going to do that too. Okay, so that’s one other commitments.

01:37:31:15 – 01:37:46:08

I’m 100% with going out to the movies and watching a movie to go. Yeah. Or even as simple as taking an afternoon and laying on the couch and watching the game or a movie there. Right. We don’t have to go somewhere, just relaxing more. I’m okay with that.

01:37:46:08 – 01:37:47:10

Ramit

Which day?

01:37:47:13 – 01:37:50:13

Friday usually works best.

01:37:50:15 – 01:37:51:19

Ana

Friday or Saturday?

01:37:51:25 – 01:38:05:01

Ramit

Friday it is, is nothing like a weekday movie. Feels very free. Okay, Friday is one of the next four Fridays. Put on the calendar and honor it. And then what commitment do you want to make?

01:38:05:03 – 01:38:20:29

I’m going to commit to be a little bit more cognizant on the spending. I would love to be able to have you feel more comfortable spending a little bit more hay on yourself, because you aren’t. You’ve earned it. You know, you do a lot for the family and you deserve it.

01:38:21:01 – 01:38:23:01

Ramit

How much? Ballpark it.

01:38:23:04 – 01:38:30:02

I’m okay with a thousand bucks a month on something that’s just for you, right? Nothing to do with the kids or the house or anything.

01:38:30:04 – 01:38:33:10

Ramit

Great. How do you feel about that?

01:38:33:13 – 01:38:37:03

Ana

Yeah, it feels good. Okay. It’s definitely a challenge, but. Yes.

01:38:37:03 – 01:38:40:26

Ramit

Good. Can you commit to spending that?

01:38:40:29 – 01:38:42:00

Ana

That’s the challenge part.

01:38:42:02 – 01:39:17:14

Ramit

That’s the challenge part? Yeah. Just to give you some ideas, because I love talking about how to spend more money meaningfully. Okay. I wish more people asked me, but Anna can do several things and it can buy new clothes. New workout accessories, massage, any of that. And it can also go in tip somebody’s $250 or, write a check to a charity for $750, and it can do whatever she wants, but she has to spend that thousand dollars per month.

01:39:17:16 – 01:39:19:02

Ramit

What do you think? Can you make that commitment?

01:39:19:06 – 01:39:20:18

Ana

I don’t I don’t think I can okay.

01:39:20:19 – 01:39:22:02

Ramit

Tell me the number. You can.

01:39:22:04 – 01:39:23:07

Ana

It’s a.

01:39:23:14 – 01:39:26:18

Ramit

That’s fine with me. How do you feel about that?

01:39:26:21 – 01:39:28:01

It’s better than nothing. It’s a great.

01:39:28:01 – 01:39:46:16

Ramit

Start. Yeah. 200 perfect. 200 bucks for you. And you got to do the same, too. He goes, no problem. I’ll spend that in the next 15 minutes. You done 200 bucks for you. And I think you two should share with each other not to be judged. There’s no judgment whatsoever. They can spend it on the weirdest thing ever.

01:39:46:19 – 01:39:53:26

Ramit

And you say that sounds awesome. I want you to get in the habit of talking about it, of being unapologetic about it.

01:39:53:29 – 01:39:55:10

I like it all right.

01:39:55:12 – 01:39:58:09

Ramit

What surprised you most about our conversation today?

01:39:58:12 – 01:40:18:09

I mean, I knew she had a problem with not spending money, but she knows this that severe, It’s crazy to know how much your upbringing truly has on on your money and the way you spend it. It was a very eye opening experience from day one to to find things out about myself and Anna.

01:40:18:09 – 01:40:21:06

Ramit

Good. Anna, what about you? What surprised you about the conversation?

01:40:21:12 – 01:40:27:03

Ana

How much of my traits are for my mom? What? Yeah.

01:40:27:06 – 01:40:57:11

Ramit

And your mom did a great job. She did the best she could. Different circumstances. But if your mom imagined, growing up in California and then Nevada and having properties and children and houses and she probably would not do what she did in your circumstance. So you actually get the chance to rewrite that. And then your kids, they will rewrite what they see as well.

01:40:57:13 – 01:41:05:01

Ramit

It’s cool. I think it’s amazing opportunity, amazing insight. And how did you feel coming in here versus how do you feel now?

01:41:05:03 – 01:41:16:29

Ana

I was super nervous then, very nervous. But I feel like I have a better understanding of the reasons why I am the way I am with money. Yeah.

01:41:17:01 – 01:41:25:27

Ramit

Cool. It’s a gift to be able to understand yourself more is really cool. Nice work. Okay, J, how about you.

01:41:25:29 – 01:41:43:13

Seem definitely nervous, but, I feel good because now we’ve got a non-biased third party that’s kind of hitting home the same things that I’ve been telling Anna for years, and I’m hoping that that hits home this time around. Right. She understands that.

01:41:43:15 – 01:42:07:29

Ramit

Both of you have been really vulnerable, and I appreciate that. I think we’ve opened up a lot of kind of like where you, your beliefs about money come from. I’d like to encourage both of you the journey that you are about to go on is actually going to take both of you to open up and to change, because until now, both of you have basically worked for worked.

01:42:08:01 – 01:42:34:16

Ramit

And, this is where I think another unbiased third party can help you construct a way to talk about this. I say this because you mentioned that once in a while, when one of you relaxes, the other one will kind of half jokingly go like, hey, what are you doing? Like, why are you chill and get up? And so you have these, like, bonds together that an identity of we work.

01:42:34:22 – 01:42:53:24

Ramit

That’s what we do. We work and it’s going to take a lot of careful unraveling and then building something new. And it’s going to be tough to do it on your own. That’s why I’m so glad you came here. You need somebody outside, and you’re going to need somebody outside to help you keep doing it. So that’s why I encourage you to see other folks coaches, therapists, others.

01:42:53:26 – 01:43:17:22

Ramit

They’ll help you get where you need to go. My wish for them actually has very little to do with the money side of it. My wish for them is to develop a skill and that is the skill of being decisive. It actually sucks to go through life being indecisive. You take one step forward, two steps back. Even when you make a decision, you look back and ruminate over it.

01:43:17:29 – 01:43:45:10

Ramit

It’s not a healthy place to be, and especially if you are a high performer, it stops you. It’s almost like going through life with brakes on. You can’t reach your full potential. What a waste. So I want them to become more decisive together. Not one, not the other. Together. I want Anna to build the confidence of saying, this is what I think we should do, and for her to build a support system so that she can talk about that skill.

01:43:45:10 – 01:44:03:11

Ramit

It’s going to be hard for Jay. I want him to be a good support system for Anna. I noticed that a couple of times he said stuff like, this is what I’ve been telling you. That’s got to stop. And for him to provide clarity to her and encouragement so that they can both start to effectively use their money.

01:44:03:17 – 01:44:30:13

Ramit

What do I think is going to happen? I think it’s going to be really hard. I think that people who have spent their entire lives working hard, seeing exhaustion as an aspiration. I think that it is incredibly difficult and often nearly impossible to change for me to say, I want you all to have a life of leisure. That would be very difficult for them.

01:44:30:16 – 01:44:58:21

Ramit

It’s difficult for Anna to even commit to spending $200 a month. But I do think there is hope. I do think that there has got to be a bigger tomorrow than today. And I don’t just mean about money. I mean about showing their children how to use money effectively, how to connect with each other so they can actually spend some time together and watch TV on the couch that is what a brighter tomorrow would be that I have confidence they can do.

01:44:58:24 – 01:45:00:26

Ramit

And now let’s check out their follow ups.

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